Christians break the Golden Rule when accepting Jesus as savior.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

That is some seriously tortured logic. Christians never asked Christ to die, and certainly Christians today are not directly responsible in any way for Christ's death. Christ died willingly, not because we said, "hey, going to hell would suck, so let's have this innocent guy die." Accepting the meaning of Christ's death is not a "consent to let Jesus suffer" as it's already occurred. Further, the idea that someone choosing to sacrifice themself for another causes the beneficiary of that sacrifice to bear the guilt simply boggles comprehension.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

^ Someone being willing to do something does not require them volunteering to do it. Volunteer means: "a person who freely offers to take part in an enterprise or undertake a task.". Freely means without compulsion and without any sort of requirement to do the activity. But you can be willing to do something even if you are being forced to do it. For instance, I am forced to complete programming assignments for my college courses, but I do it without argument because I want the carrot provided by completing a given assignment (getting one step closer to my degree). I am willing to do it, because I do not fight it - but I am not volunteering because I did not directly ask for the assignment (i.e. I never went up to a professor and said "I would like 7 assignments this semester, please".)The same principle applies with Jesus. Jesus is willing to die for us because he has developed absolute loyalty to God, who told him that he was to die for us. It is not volunteering because Jesus did not directly ask for or come up with the task of dying for us. But that does not change the fact that he is willing to do it.

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These are various components of old testament law. They do not apply to the world of the new testament or the modern day. It's like trying to claim China's laws are to be enforced in Germany. That's not how it works.

To your stuff about a Court of Law not accepting this, and Thomas Paine, well God is not a court of law, nor is he Thomas Paine. God is not bound to secular rules, laws, or systems of justice, nor is he bound to the principles of any one human or group of humans.

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So? In events where the will of god and the will of one or more Christians contradict each other, Christians are called to defer to the will of god.

Also, the bible is not exactly a loud and clear call for the golden rule. The golden rule openly justifies revenge, by essentially saying that if you treat someone badly, they are justified in seeking revenge against you. Meanwhile, the bible tells us this:

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[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

^ Jesus referred to the OT, as did his disciples, to illustrate what parts are still revelant to us (for instance, the 10 commandments). But that does not mean the entire old testament is still meant to be followed. The three parts you quoted are not a commandment for today.

I agree, I am not fit for heaven. No one is, because all have sinned, and the wages of even just one sin is death. But we have been provided with a savior, and we would be incredibly retarded if we did not take his offer, as the alternative is eternal suffering in hell.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

^ Jesus referred to the OT, as did his disciples, to illustrate what parts are still revelant to us (for instance, the 10 commandments). But that does not mean the entire old testament is still meant to be followed. The three parts you quoted are not a commandment for today.

I agree, I am not fit for heaven. No one is, because all have sinned, and the wages of even just one sin is death. But we have been provided with a savior, and we would be incredibly retarded if we did not take his offer, as the alternative is eternal suffering in hell.

If we all sin as you say, then you might wonder why your God cannot make us the way you think he wants us to be and why, because of his poor creative powers, he has to have his own son murdered to forgive his own incompetence instead of just forgiving himself or us outright.

Regards
DL

God needs blood atonement (through animals in the old covenant; through jesus in the new covenant) to fulfill a fundamental characteristic of his: Being a just god. But he still offers a method for forgiveness, so he is still merciful. And that is the point of the matter. God is both just and merciful. If he forgave without atonement, he would not be just. If he did not forgive at all, he would not be merciful.

As for why God did not make us physically unable to sin, that is for him to know and him alone.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Obviously Obedience is better than Sacrifice. That is made quite clear in Matthew and 1st John. God does not delight in seeing blood spilled, that doesn't even sound possible. But it is the only way through which sin can be properly absolved once committed.

God needs a blood sacrifice to forgive sin because it is the only proper punishment for sin. God does not violate his fundamental characteristics, one of which is to be just. Why he chose to have that particular characteristic is for only him to know, but since he has recorded that he has it in his word, he is not going to go against it. God does not go against what he has stated in scripture.

I know, it's tempting to think that there is 1) some way to work yourself into heaven, or 2) a cuddly version of god who thinks whatever you do is "cool". But neither of those gods exist. The god that does exist is one that has given us commandments, which each of us have broken. But he has also offered a way out that we do not have to work for.

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[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

To DL: Well, the Trinity is key here. While God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three entities, they are all part of the same "being". When God sent Jesus, he was sending a part of himself. So it's not truly "sacrificing your child to save yourself".

If I was forced to perform the sacrifice, I would obviously sacrifice myself over my child. But it is kind of silly to ask that question of me, as I am not God, so there will never be a need for me to organize a sin sacrifice.

[Attorney General & PPT Dwarven Dragon]

This is not a good argument.  Not only penal substitution but any Christian account of the atonement in some way involves people relying for their salvation on the fact of Christ's suffering and death.

Sorry to burst your bubble on this. Scriptures say otherwise.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

All that is required for salvation is knowledge of the truth.

Part of that truth to a Gnostic Christian is that there is no hell otherwise we would all end there as we all contribute to the sins of others as we all interact together.

That conundrum is why we are Universalists.

EG. Hitler was not born evil but became so and was helped to be what he was by all those who interacted with him. He was not born evil but was made so. So who should be blamed if not all who made him what he ended up being?

Now apply that to all people and see that a God would either have to punish all f us or forgive all of us.

Regards
DL

Of course, if we were subject to judgement based on our actions alone, we would all go to hell. But that doesn't mean hell doesn't exist - rather, it indicates why we can only be saved by faith and trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, not through our works or through making up a version of god that endorses whatever we do. Heaven can be reached, and hell can be avoided, but we can only reach heaven through Jesus - our works don't do it because they are a disappointment to god! Sure, we may go to church every week or donate thousands of dollars to the American Cancer Society, or go on thousands of mission trips, but while those are all great things to do, they do not change the fact that our lives are irreparably tainted with sin, therefore they cannot be used as a reason to get us into heaven. The bible is also very clear in The Ten Commandments, Matthew, and 1st John (among other places) that we are not to reshape god into our own image (in fact, doing so is sinful!), but to love him, follow him in the manner the bible prescribes, and obey all of his commandments (Even though just one sin during our lives makes us require Jesus to enter heaven (and all of us have sinned at least once), and we can fully trust in him to provide us salvation IF we make it clear through prayer that we are sorry for our sins and fully accepting of his gift, it is still important to obey commandments (as best we can), because we're getting to heaven because of the sacrifice, and the least we can do to show how thankful we are is by showing that our repentance is not a joke through striving to obey commandments in everything we do).

Adam and Eve were able to fall because God created them with free will. Of course, god instilled in Adam and Eve a great loyalty to him, and told them exactly what he required of them - but they were tempted by Satan, broke the commandment they had been given, and in doing so, they banished the human race from the perfect environment provided by the garden of Eden, released diseases into the world, bathed the world in sin, and made it so that all human life eventually ended in death (Death of other animals, of course, was instituted at the time of the earth's creation, several billion years before Adam existed). As for why God gave Adam and Eve (and by proxy, all humans, as we are all descended from Adam and Eve) the ability to be tempted by Satan, perhaps he wanted his creation to have willful faith in him and not forced faith? Perhaps he, even at the time of the creation of Adam, was already planning to release a savior onto the world at some point, and so saw no need to take away free will? Or perhaps there is another explanation that only he knows. Whatever the answer is, I believe that if you get to heaven, all your questions will be answered.

No one can make themself worthy of heaven.

Then God makes us defective and you might wonder why.

You would also have to ignore scriptures that say some walked with God before Jesus even came along. Enoch and Job come to mind.

Regards
DL

Before Jesus's sacrifice, God allowed people to obtain salvation through animal sacrifice. But with Jesus's sacrifice, that is no longer necessary, so it no longer works as a method of salvation.

To DL: Well, the Trinity is key here. While God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three entities, they are all part of the same "being". When God sent Jesus, he was sending a part of himself. So it's not truly "sacrificing your child to save yourself".

If I was forced to perform the sacrifice, I would obviously sacrifice myself over my child. But it is kind of silly to ask that question of me, as I am not God, so there will never be a need for me to organize a sin sacrifice.

Three entities means three Gods.

If Jesus is God, show where in scriptures that say God can die.

If Jesus did not stay dead then there was no sacrifice as nothing was lost which negates a sacrifice.

You might also wonder why the Trinity doctrine was not implemented till over4 300 years after Jesus supposedly died.

Regards
DL

Jesus was resurrected as a means of showing that his sacrifice was what he said it was going to be, that he was actually god, and that he could be fully trusted. He still died, it's just that he did not die in the permanent matter that we do. But the bible is clear that that does not make his sacrifice worthless. Also, as far as how he can die if he is god, well, his death was done in a special manner. He did not die directly through the effects of being nailed to and left on the cross, he died by his spirit being divinely removed and taken to heaven by the "father" part of the trinity. He was then resurrected by direct divine action. At the end of resurrection period, he returned to heaven through rising through the air back up to it. No death of any type required.

Also, the trinity does not mean three gods, but "one god who lives and works in three different ways at the same time" (Christian Doctrine, Guthrie, 1994). Yes, this entails God "separating" to accomplish his work, but it does not change the fact that it is one god.