Israel

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

God gave that land to Abraham for the descendents of Israel back in Genesis, a book which foreshadows the rest of biblical history and prophecy.  As the following prophesy from Joel foretells, it is very unwise to attempt to undo the patterns set in Genesis:

Joel 2:30-3:2
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,  Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness  And the moon into blood  Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD  Will be delivered;  For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem  There will be those who escape,  As the LORD has said,  Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,  When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations  And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.  Then I will enter into judgment with them there  On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,  Whom they have scattered among the nations;  And they have divided up My land."

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You said it yourself. It's god who gave them the land and not the west so therefore, the US and the western powers have zero obligation to back Israel. Glad to see you're backing me up.

But the U.S. is sharing a role of dividing up the land.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Do you know how Israel treats Jewish converts to Christianity?

Does that matter?

Rom 11:29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.


And he will cleanse Israel upon his return:

Rom 11:26 The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


Not according to their ways, but according to his promise:

Eze 20:44 Then you will know that I am the LORD when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your evil ways or according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Of course it matters. I do not deny that there the promise made to Abraham is valid. The land of Israel was nothing more than the type of what the inheritance of the seed of Abraham is, that is, the whole universe in the person Jesus Christ, whose kingdom shall have no end.
What I do deny is that Christians are obliged to support land grabbing by apostate Jews who persist in rebellion.

Obviously it is more than just a type or shadow, otherwise the New Testament would have treated Israel and the promises to that country as merely shadows, as it does the Jewish feasts and holy days.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Bono,

Also, you're saying that there are physical implications to our world today of the events of Genesis ch1 thru ch12, but not of the events of Gen ch12 thru ch50.   Yet there is no justification for cleaving the book of Genesis like that.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Has Israel ever known true peace?

dude, they live around a bunch of Arabs

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Has Israel ever known true peace?

dude, they live around a bunch of Arabs

Before Muhammad and even Jesus, I mean....

The Arabs have been around since Ishmael...but Israel has know peace from time to time in the old testament, but they would always fall away from God and the result would be attack from another country.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Has Israel ever known true peace?

dude, they live around a bunch of Arabs

Before Muhammad and even Jesus, I mean....

The Arabs have been around since Ishmael...but Israel has know peace from time to time in the old testament, but they would always fall away from God and the result would be attack from another country.

So, they deserve what they're getting? Good to know.

but God also always punished the nation(s) he used as instruments of his judgment of Israel.  So its a double-edged sword. 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Any word on possible coalitions yet?

Livni rejected Bibis for now so it looks like a narrow right coalition (Likud-YB-Shas-UTJ-NU-Jewish Home).

I wouldn't exactly call a 65-55 majority "narrow"

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Well, according to Obama we shouldn't be meddling in another nations affairs. Unless it's Israel, then it's ok for Obama to tell them to not build settlements.

But with the settlements, two nations are involved.

Arguable.

By Israeli law all settlements, except for some neighborhoods annexed to Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, are not located in Israel.  From the Israeli official standpoint, Israel runs a military occupation regime there and the government (in Israeli-controlled areas) is under the Ministry of Defense. No attempt has ever been made to annex those areas. So, at least from the standpoint of Israeli law, these areas are not part of Israel. Do you know of any other state or official entity, that, actualy, considers these to be part of Israel?

yeah, I personally know the King of Kings, Christ Jesus, and he considers them part of Israel.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

you honestly believe that these terrorists will leave Israelis Alone?

I believe a State of Palestine is in the best interests of Israel. 

yeah, because, historically, Israelis allowing Gentiles to divide up the land of Jacob has worked so well for Israel....right?!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

you honestly believe that these terrorists will leave Israelis Alone?

I believe a State of Palestine is in the best interests of Israel. 

yeah, because, historically, Israelis allowing Gentiles to divide up the land of Jacob has worked so well for Israel....right?!

You're not still using the religious argument, are you? 

no, rather I'm using recorded history...far be it from me to attempt to use a religious argument on a bunch of idiots.

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No person with the slightest shred of common sense is going to buy that!

1Cor 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

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  Furthermore, creating a state almost exclusively for a particular religious group is just wrong on so many levels.

you mean - wrong on so many politically correct levels.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

This "Land of Jacob" you speak of, whatever the case may be it most certainly doesn't exist any more and now that patch of land it supposedly occupied is under different management now.

which was all prophesied

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 Ancient Israel is gone, trying to revive it will only create a whole plethora of problems, which it already has done.  If you forcibly evict a bunch of people from their homes, expect some of them to get violent, and expect all of them to be absolutely pissed off.

which was all prophesied

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You really must be a complete twit for thinking that you can preach Bible texts at me!  It won't work

which was all prophesied

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What has political correctness got to do with it?  Nothing, that's what.  You know for well creating a state for the sole use of one group (racial, religious or otherwise) is effectively imposing a form of apartheid on that area.

yes, there will be an eternal "apartheid":  Luke 16:26 "between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us"...Rev 22:14 "Blessed are those who have the right to go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

I don't know about you, but I want to be on the inside, not on the outside.

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Grief, the trouble with arguing with narrow-minded imbeciles is that there are very few rational ways to get back at them!

stop being a pawn 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Show me where all these events were "Prophesied". The means in which (modern) Israel came is absolutely disgraceful, verging on downright evil in places.

Read the bible.  The reformation of Israel in the last days is a common theme throughout scripture.  But, its current reformation is not complete, Jesus must first return.

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Your self-righteous, obnoxious, Bible thumping ways do not endear you to me

It’s “self-righteous” to want to be saved?!  How so?

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… for one thing I am an Atheist so naturally I don't buy a single word of it (and if I have to go Richard Dawkins on you, I will).  Just don't try to use Biblical arguments on me- oh wait, you can't, because you don't know any other form of debate (I will retract that statement if you can prove otherwise).  If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, you will cease and desist in citing religious scripture of dubious accuracy, reliability and plausibility.

Just because you only accept the logic of the world, don’t expect me to revert back to using the world’s logic.  But, just for you, I will give it a shot:  if your worldly logic was so accurate, why is it constantly rewriting it’s conclusions?

You stop being a complete dick.  You think I'm a pawn for thinking for myself and not blindly following some scripture like you?  You're dumber than I thought.  It's people like you that really turn me off religion (Christianity in particular), and its people like you who give it (religion, Christianity) a bad name.

I’m sorry bold unapologetic truth turns you off, but I’m sure you can find many Christian denominations who’ll water down the bible to your liking, though I think you'll find my interpretation to be much more in agreement with the text.

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Now if you'll excuse me, I'll just sit back and shake my head disapprovingly at you.

That’s not surprising, they did the same to Jesus because what he preached was “too harsh” for their comfort.  Understand stand, I am not seeking your approval.

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  Besides, it's not to hard to see that I'd have a better time discussing this with a brick wall, they provide more stimulating and intelligent responses anyway.

I’m sure you and the brick wall will find a lot in common. 

But, seriously, have you ever read the bible?