are Mormons Christians?

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What is the point of life; from your view?

For the same reason Eve was created for Adam; we were created to provide God companionship:

"It is not good for man to be alone"

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An unembodied spirit.

And what was God to you before coming to earth, and what will God be to you after this life?

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sorry I meant what was your relationship to God, and what will it be?

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sorry I meant what was your relationship to God, and what will it be?

The relationship is the same then, now, and in the future...He is the Father.

and, according to Joseph Smith, where did the Father come from?  What were his origins?

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sorry I meant what was your relationship to God, and what will it be?

The relationship is the same then, now, and in the future...He is the Father.

and, according to Joseph Smith, where did the Father come from?  What were his origins?

There is no firm doctrine on that.

huh?  Joseph Smith didn't teach that God was created by another "god" and was once a man who lived on another planet before attaining godhood?

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and, according to Joseph Smith, where did the Father come from?  What were his origins?

There is no firm doctrine on that.

huh?  Joseph Smith didn't teach that God was created by another "god" and was once a man who lived on another planet before attaining godhood?

Nope.

then who was it that said, "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so one, from one generation to generation"

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then who was it that said, "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so one, from one generation to generation"

If I had to take a guess it would be Orson Pratt.

wasn't he among the coucil of twelve?  the same council that formed the Mormon doctrine?

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  Nevertheless, as I stated before, and have to state unequivocally again:  There is no firm doctrine around this subject.  I find it absolutely pointless for someone to be checking on old quotes that have no basis for firm Church doctrine.

ok, but isn't this from Joseph Smith

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity,  I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).

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he is the link of what Joseph Smith wrote:

http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-1.html

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hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting from what he preached.

In fact, he didn't claim it was his opinion, but rather he opened the sermon by saying, "I calculate to edify you with the simple truths from heaven."

so, it doesn't bother you that Joseph Smith opined the following?

"These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said."

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so, if you have researched it all, did you find any verses in your bible that refuted Joseph Smith's opinion?

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hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting from what he preached.

When the "messenger" clearly changes from being an inquisitive person to drumming up a traditional anti-Mormon argument, I will call him on it.  I've said this before and it seems I have to say it again, the JD is opinion and non-authoritative.  There is no basis for any of what you said in Church doctrine.

an anti-Mormon argument?  How can a posted sermon of Joseph Smith's be considered an anti-Mormon argument? Who is making the anti-Mormon argument, Joseph Smith himself? 

I am simply asking if you agree with the sermon and have it to be in agreement with the bible.

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an anti-Mormon argument?  How can a posted sermon of Joseph Smith's be considered an anti-Mormon argument? Who is making the anti-Mormon argument, Joseph Smith himself? 

I am simply asking if you agree with the sermon and have it to be in agreement with the bible.

Seriously dude, don't try to play around with me here.  You can quote all you want from the Journal of Discourses, but that does not make them authoritative in the Church theology.  You can try to pawn this off as you are merely quoting Joseph Smith, and ask this question: "Who is making the anti-Mormon argument, Joseph Smith himself?"  But your purpose is sinister in trying to apply opinion to LDS Church doctrine.

ok, I agree it is his opinion.  but do you agree with it or not?  I haven't disagreed with any of the pasages you quoted to support what you believe, rather I have simply let you state what you believe without arguing with you.  So why can't you answer if you agree or not with this sermon of Joseph Smith's?

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ok, I agree it is his opinion.  but do you agree with it or not?  I haven't disagreed with any of the pasages you quoted to support what you believe, rather I have simply let you state what you believe without arguing with you.  So why can't you answer if you agree or not with this sermon of Joseph Smith's?

I can answer that, I just wanted to make plainly sure that the JD is opinion.  I also know that you haven't argued with me on my beliefs, though at many opportunities I know you could have.  Having said that, no I don't agree with the quote that you gave.

What do you find biblically wrong with the sermon?

Do you share the same opinion of the the Journals of Discourses (JD) that Joseph Smith had?:

"It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal."  President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Journals of Discourses Vol.18.

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again I ask, what did you find biblically wrong with Joseph Smith's sermon?

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What do you find biblically wrong with the sermon?

Do you share the same opinion of the the Journals of Discourses (JD) that Joseph Smith had?:

"It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal."  President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Journals of Discourses Vol.18.

The preface was written by Joseph F. Smith, a descendant of Hyrum Smith, Joseph Smith's brother.  I do believe the Journal of Discourses provides good insight, but some of the opinion therein do not exactly stand in par with LDS Church doctrine.

Joseph F. Smith was also a president of the LDS Church

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I could make a Biblical argument both ways.  It depends on how literal you take the passage.  If I take the word "same" as meaning "exact" I would not agree with it.  However, it is stated in the Bible that we will be heirs of the Kingdom of God.

so you think God is going to get promoted and you're going to take God's place and be exalted yourself? 

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Mr. Fresh

I'm going to be very busy today and maybe the rest of this week, so I won't be able to post.

So, I'll cut to the chase:  This line of questioning is to determine if you are capable of critiquing church leadership when you consider that they are in error.

I'd like to also see you conclude whether or not God was created by another god or if God was always God. and back up your conclusion with any scripture you'd like.

Peace.

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As for the God question, there is no real evidence that God was created by another being.  There are plain scriptures that point to this.  I will also give a scripture from Mormon writ to back that.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Agreed

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Doctrine and Covenants 20:11-12
11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old;
12 Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen.
 

Although I agree with the conclusion, they made quite a leap in logic by saying that God calls people today as he did yesterday therefore God is unchanging.  I've brushed my teeth for decades, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t changed.

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If I may add some verses to put this issue to rest:

Deut 4:35 “the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.”

Isa 44:8 “Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Therefore, unless God is a liar or has a bad memory, God was not created by another god, he didn’t begin on another planet as a man who attained godhood, rather he was and is the only God.  Always has been, always will be.

Agreed?

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Deut 4:35 “the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.”

Isa 44:8 “Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Therefore, unless God is a liar or has a bad memory, God was not created by another god, he didn’t begin on another planet as a man who attained godhood, rather he was and is the only God.  Always has been, always will be.

Agreed?

Yes I would.

Ok, so then, if the leaders of the LDS Church disagreed with the following sermon by Joseph Smith...

"I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity,  I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us"

...why did they reprint it decades later in their Journals of Discourses?  Why hold it up as an example of a great sermon?

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so, are you saying that sermon didn't represent what Josepth Smith really believed and he simply had eaten some bad pizza that day?

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so, are you saying that sermon didn't represent what Joseph Smith really believed and he simply had eaten some bad pizza that day?

lol, ok I'll highlight for you the most operative statement to the discussion:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

well, that speculation was certainly widespread among the leadership, since the church records demonstrate many of them teaching along the same lines.

Since they kept a record of the sermons, is there a record of a member of the LDS leadership rebuking and disagreeing with the "speculation" of that day?

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so, now that we agree that God was always God and will always be God:  "I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isa 43:10)

Who were you in your "pre-mortal" existence?

And who is Jesus Christ in the Mormon Church?

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Who were you in your "pre-mortal" existence?

We've been over that.

but you believe you are from Heaven, right?


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And who is Jesus Christ in the Mormon Church?

The Savior of the world.

sorry, my question wasn't clear:  who was Jesus prior to coming to earth?

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but you believe you are from Heaven, right?

I've never referred to it as that, and no the Pre-Mortal existence was not heaven.

then where was this pre-mortal existence?

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sorry, my question wasn't clear:  who was Jesus prior to coming to earth?

The First Son of God.

and who was Jesus before he was the First Son of God?

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Deut 4:35 “the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deut 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.”

Isa 44:8 “Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

Therefore, unless God is a liar or has a bad memory, God was not created by another god, he didn’t begin on another planet as a man who attained godhood, rather he was and is the only God.  Always has been, always will be.

Agreed?

Yes I would.

Mr. Fresh, I'm glad we agreed that God was always God and always will be God and that there will never be another God.

sorry, my question wasn't clear:  who was Jesus prior to coming to earth?

The First Son of God.

So, the follow up question is:  Who was Jesus Christ before be became the Son of God?

The way I see it, the basic definition of Christianity is to believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ, and in order for Jesus Christ to be Deity, he had to always be God, because as the above verses make clear, God always existed.  Since created beings didn't always exist, they can not be God...which means the idea that Jesus (who is God) is somehow the spiritual brother of Satan is nonsense.  Such a statement robs Jesus of his Deity as if he was once on an equal level with Satan and spawns the idea that Jesus was a created being that attained godhood. 

The created being who first got the idea of attaining godhood was Satan himself:

Isa 14 12 How you have fallen from heaven,
       O Lucifer, son of the dawn!
       You have been cast down to the earth,
       you who once laid low the nations!

 13 You said in your heart,
       "I will ascend to heaven;
       I will raise my throne
       above the stars of God;
       I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
       on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 
 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
       I will make myself like the Most High."

 15 But you are brought down to the grave,
       to the depths of the pit.

Since it was Satan who first aspired to attain godhood, is it little wonder the rest of Christianity is shocked by the beliefs of Joseph Smith?

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So, the follow up question is:  Who was Jesus Christ before be became the Son of God?

The way I see it, the basic definition of Christianity is to believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ, and in order for Jesus Christ to be Deity, he had to always be God, because as the above verses make clear, God always existed.  Since created beings didn't always exist, they can not be God...which means the idea that Jesus (who is God) is somehow the spiritual brother of Satan is nonsense.  Such a statement robs Jesus of his Deity as if he was once on an equal level with Satan and spawns the idea that Jesus was a created being that attained godhood. 

See your premise that Jesus is God the Father is where we differ.  The LDS Church does not subscribe to the Trinitarian doctrine that the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit are one eternal God.  The LDS Church affirms that they are separate beings, in one Godhead, and one in purpose not substance.  And I challenge you to bring me a scripture where 'trinity' is mentioned.

So if God the Father, and Jesus Christ are indeed different persons, and since God did create all things and people it stands that Jesus Christ and humanity are brothers and sisters.

So, to you, God created Jesus, who in turn somehow became a god himself.  Which contradicts our previous ageement that there is only one God and that one God always existed and that there will never be another god other than God.

And scripture says that Jesus created all things:

Col 1
15 Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Jesus all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 Jesus is before all things, and in Jesus all things hold together. 18And Jesus is the head of the body, the church; Jesus is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything Jesus might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in Jesus, 20and through Jesus to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through Jesus’ blood, shed on the cross.  [pronoun he was replaced with Jesus throughout]

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  I also have this question to pose, where did Satan come from?  He is a "Fallen Angel" I presume is your belief, so where did he come from?  God created all things so it stands to reason that he created Lucifer as well.

yes, God did create Satan

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I have never made a statement, and certainly the Church hasn't, that Satan is on the same level as Jesus Christ.  He is in the Godhead, he is the Savior and Redeemer of the world, by him and through him humanity is saved.  He is the mediator between justice and mercy.  Satan on the other hand is the antithesis of everything I've mentioned.

well, at some point in the past, if you believe Jesus and Satan were both created and were brothers, then you're saying they were at one time on the same level.