Dems become big-time NATO supporters for some reason

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

I don't know what else one can call this other than classic stoogery:


Article here:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/204071/americans-support-nato-alliance.aspx

Shouldn't Dems be condemning NATO as militarist, terrorist, imperialist, harmful to U.S. interests, and a complete waste of money?

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

NATO is the last foothold of liberal democracy in the world.

it was without merits before putin made a war-loving imperialist religious superpower out of his country, whose only goal seems to be destroying the EU.

today either you support the NATO or you think defending democracy can be done with words and contracts alone.

-NATO defends militant Islam, not democracy.

You also seem to misunderstand Russian goals badly.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

BTW, the "last foothold of liberal democracy" is Switzerland, which has never been part of NATO or the E.U.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

NATO defends militant Islam

as an european, i know which country really helps militant islam.

and ofc i know of putin's goal to make the most out of the refugee mess.

not even talking about the new russian alliance with the afghan taliban.

-There is no Russian alliance with the Afghan Taliban; Russia is just willing to negotiate with them. Merkel and Erdogan did make the most of the refugee mess; Putin does not care if Europe's leaders stab it in the foot or not.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

I mean, considering he quite literally trolls in every single one of his posts, I would think that people would stop responding to him.

-First people praise Santander over me because "he has a sense of humor", then condemn me for trolling. Well, guess what, folks, less than 5% of my posts can be described as trolling even under the most liberal definition of the term.

Under any serious examination, Dem support for NATO really is bizarre. Either they support militarism or they don't. Or they just do and don't do so opportunistically and only genuinely care about domestic issues.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Putin does not care if Europe's leaders stab it in the foot or not.

do you really believe he "doesn't care" if his enemies make mistakes or not?

there are sooo many available informations about russian gloating, that they could stop the refugee crossing anytime they wanted, if they would feel like it.

radical russian muslims are used as putin's dirthy-work thugs for assassinations and stuff....well, another chechnyan killer, who should care? not even talking about the radicals who got offers like prison or migration.

all of this makes putin into the biggest enemy of freedom, radical muslims are only another chess piece for him to use how he likes.

-Since when is the present Russian administration a friend of Chechen militants? No; that role falls squarely on the American and British press.

The refugees do not pass through Russia, but through Turkey, Libya, and Morocco.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

I mean, considering he quite literally trolls in every single one of his posts, I would think that people would stop responding to him.

-First people praise Santander over me because "he has a sense of humor", then condemn me for trolling. Well, guess what, folks, less than 5% of my posts can be described as trolling even under the most liberal definition of the term.

Under any serious examination, Dem support for NATO really is bizarre. Either they support militarism or they don't. Or they just do and don't do so opportunistically and only genuinely care about domestic issues.

What even is "militarism" according to you? If you just mean, supporting a strong national defense, then most liberals wouldn't disagree. The main problem was that a lot of money was wasted on failed projects and no bid contracts, as well as useless wars. The concept of NATO is not necessarily at odds with modern day liberal thought.

-NATO is not "a strong national defense" at all; it's just exposing America to a needless possibility of conflict, permitting other countries to rip America off, and a major contributor to world instability of every stripe. Remember, alliances were a big reason for why the First World War became a World War. Alliances, especially big multi-country ones, are inextricably meshed with militarism.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Uh, if you don't understand why Democrats support NATO, then you don't understand the Democratic Party or American liberalism, or the history of either.

-Look at the 1990s #s, dude.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Lot's of people unfortunately take NATO for granted.  There's not many living WWII people left around.  They remember why we can never go back to that kind of world.

-Yeah; the wars in Libya and Syria are so, so great! Let's thank the great fighters of the wildly successful Operation Euphrates Shield!

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

NATO is not "a strong national defense" at all; it's just exposing America to a needless possibility of conflict, permitting other countries to rip America off, and a major contributor to world instability of every stripe. Remember, alliances were a big reason for why the First World War became a World War. Alliances, especially big multi-country ones, are inextricably meshed with militarism.

don't want to be disrespectful, even if i am talking to you pretty blunt, but you argue like someone, who wants to convince people, that only isolationism and bridge-building could ever be in the interest of the US, while russia makes the total opposite and increases its influence on a daily basis.

-Russia does not do "the total opposite" at all.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Since when is the present Russian administration a friend of Chechen militants?

since chechnya is a dictatorship so grim that even putin can't totally control it and the local warlord uses his many thugs, who are also muslims, to be used for the most gruesome pro-regime jobs of all.

if some opposition figurehead is assassinated, the victim is officially always some little guy out of chechnya......connecting the dots isn't so difficult.

-Chechna was a big trouble spot since the early 1990s, both when independent and not.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

I think the alliance should be maintained (although Turkey needs to be kicked out), but that doesn't make me a big-time supporter.

-OK, that's at least a position I can respect, since I know you're not a standard-issue Dem-party hack. Turkey's definitely one of the worst parts of NATO.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

-Russia does not do "the total opposite" at all.

hey, i am respecting putin, for fighting to the bitter end, manipulating everybody like a real master chess player, using every possible choke-hold on his enemies, undermine every organization worldwide which could in any way damage his goals and being - other than donald - a real alpha-man.

a dictator's dictator who can allow himself to use humour....a feat which erdogan and trump never are able to tolerate.

but ofc he is increasing his worldwide empire of information and influence daily, not even looking back one minute or caring too much about decreasing social standards inside of russia. this is real power.

-Name a "decreasing social standard inside of Russia" between 2016 and 2012, except the obvious oil-revenue-related stuff.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Turkey's definitely one of the worst parts of NATO.

russia's closest regional partner - obviously a worthy member for the eurasion union.

-No. Turkey is very much a threat; one of the biggest state sponsors of terror out there outside the Gulf.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Chechna was a big trouble spot since the early 1990s, both when independent and not.

it is a trouble spot...and should have been allowed to leave the federation. a referendum would have been fine, i guess.

-Chechna is a classic wolf-by-the-ear situation, very similar to Gaza. Only if a 100-foot wall is constructed around it could it ever be independent without harming Russia.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

-No. Turkey is very much a threat; one of the biggest state sponsors of terror out there outside the Gulf.

ofc it is, that's the reason russia is trying to befriend the country, putin wants a monopoly on state-sponsored terror attacks.

if we are only looking at syria, putin should hate erdogan, but since he wants to crush the EU, he doesn't care about russian lives.

-The E.U. is crushing itself. If an independence referendum were held in France tomorrow, it would vote Leave. Your ideas about why Putin is trying to befriend Erdogan are baseless.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

I think the alliance should be maintained (although Turkey needs to be kicked out), but that doesn't make me a big-time supporter.

-OK, that's at least a position I can respect, since I know you're not a standard-issue Dem-party hack. Turkey's definitely one of the worst parts of NATO.

Uhhhh I don't think Democrats mindlessly support what's going on in Turkey right now. Just because one country in the alliance is cause for increasing concern doesn't justify throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

-There is no baby there. At all. Just a bunch of blood, tears, and ruin.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

If an independence referendum were held in France tomorrow, it would vote Leave. Your ideas about why Putin is trying to befriend Erdogan are baseless.

"we know nothing" is the real new russian state slogan. today's propaganda is not about convincing, it's about making clear, that nobody knows anything about anything and anything is possible.

i am pretty sure, that france, especially since the brexit, is one of the most loyal EU countries in the union but you are ofc entitled to your opinion.

the most critical country, which could leave the union, would be, in my opinion, the netherlands....even hyper-critical austria is swinging hard pro-eu since the brexit....we have finally figured out who our real opponent is.

-Opinion polls show me to be right on France, especially in the months before Brexit. Austria's not very anti-E.U.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Turkey is bad.. and they would be much worse outside of NATO.  It's the least-bad option to keep them as close to us as possible.

-By that logic, Russia should be part of NATO (note: I do not support this!).

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

erdogan is trying hard since years, to free himself of the west, against even the wishes of many politicans of his own party.

turkey is too important to just let it go....if they want to change their alliances, they need to decide it themselves.

i don't think there is any question who is financing the ISIS/al qaida in syria - putin's allies in ankara.

-They're not allies, just people tired of having their rebel forces be totally crushed by Russian-backed ones, as in Aleppo.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

-Opinion polls show me to be right on France, especially in the months before Brexit. Austria's not very anti-E.U.

more recent data:

-Britain above France at the time of the referendum. LOL.