Opinion of Socialism

[opebo]

...central planning and/or abolition of private property...really? How is it not discredited?

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

[opebo]

Conversely, how is it that private privilege and control of others through 'property' not discredited?  We see the carnage all around us.

Oh, that might be the biggest increase in public welfare and the greatest eradication of poverty the world has ever seen which is playing its tricks.

Yes, nearly everyone, like you, believes that about the social order.  Looks rather like propaganda viewed from the bottom up though, n'est-ce pas?

[opebo]

Yes, nearly everyone, like you, believes that about the social order.  Looks rather like propaganda viewed from the bottom up though, n'est-ce pas?

If one were to ask my grandmother whether life got better over the last century I don't think she would consider it propaganda.

Sorry, Gustaf, I had understood that in this thread we were being called upon to analyze systems of social control, not historical time periods.

[opebo]

The "decentralized model of Socialist control" has been tried, most notably in Yugoslavia, and produced this crap:

The 'Yugo' was a good car, wormy, and more to the point it was anyway a near-exact copy of the Fiat 127, also a good car and the product of a capitalist economy:

[opebo]

The "decentralized model of Socialist control" has been tried, most notably in Yugoslavia, and produced this crap:

The 'Yugo' was a good car, wormy, and more to the point it was anyway a near-exact copy of the Fiat 127, also a good car and the product of a capitalist economy:

Thats not at all what we are talking about here. Yugoslavia was not a democracy and its model was not market based (even if it did have some market elements).

No, if you read my post you will see that the point was that the Yugo was a copy of the Fiat 127, which did originate from a capitalist economy - Italy.

[opebo]

The car that scored last in the J.D. Power customer satisfaction survey every year it was sold?  Whatever you want to believe, peebs.  (And Zastava had even worse quality control than "Fix It Again Tony").

wormy, J.D. Power surveys American new car buyers, a group whose opinion has no bearing on whether a car is 'good' or not.  Its like asking the people leaving McDonalds to rate Michelin's stars.

Fiat, Renault, Citroen, Peugeot - while Italian and French automobile companies have poor reputations in America, they produced some of the most durable, cleverly designed cars in history.   And in point of fact their East European emulators did a much better job than they are given credit for - many East European cars were rugged and effective basic transportation.

[opebo]

While I have seen plenty of Geo Metros and Volkswagen Rabbits and even Dodge Omnis on the road, I can't say I've seen too many Yugos (or French and Italian cars, for that matter).  The reason why is because they were pieces of crap that fell apart.

Actually no, the reason you didn't see them is because they sold a tiny fraction of the numbers of Geo Metros and Dodge Omnis sold.  You hardly ever saw them when they were brand new.  (don't get me started on Volkswagens - terrible cars).

However it is true that Eastern European, Italian, and French cars were not ideally suited to american driving conditions, and were also very ill-supported by dealer networks, repair shops, and parts suppliers.  Many of these cars had good reputations for robust durability back home where there was a support network, the roads were not heavily salted, and most driving was done at lower speeds on twistier roads.