Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[Tender Branson]

Austrians are opposed to border fences, but favour "transit zones" at the borders to Slovenia/Germany where migrants can be registered properly and move on:

Gallup/Ö24

30% in favour of border fences/walls
54% opposed

74% in favour of transit zones
15% opposed

http://www.ots.at/presseaussendung/OTS_20151105_OTS0165/oesterreich-umfrage-74-prozent-sind-fuer-transitzonen

[Tender Branson]

On the other hand, another poll by Unique Research for "Heute" shows Austrians remain deeply sceptical and worried about the huge migrant influx:



"Is the high number of migrants recently a cause for concern and unease ?"

60-40 Yes

"Should Austria take (or let) in ... ?"

 8% more migrants
23% the same amount as now => 31% more or same amount
25% fewer than now
35% no more migrants at all => 60% less to none

...



1) Who has the best solutions/ideas/policies when it comes to the asylum crisis ?

2) Which measures would be most successful in dealing with the crisis ?

3) Which problems are awaiting us because of the asylum crisis ?

http://www.heute.at/news/politik/art23660,1230544

[Tender Branson]

But Sweden, what about your duty to help all the people in the world? I think you simply have to place those refugees in private homes. Anyone that has more than 50 square meters to themselves can surely house a couple of migrants.

That was actually a recent proposal from the Greens here...

You can clearly see how out-of-touch the Greens have become on this issue ...

Those moral-apostles who want to save the whole world should start taking in 5-10 migrants into their own homes and feed them through by paying for them with their own money (not ours), instead of shoving them down our throats ...

[Tender Branson]

Do you have a chart of countries by refugees per capita?

Data is available for the 1st & 2nd quarter of 2015 so far (which was before the massive influx, which happened between August => now):



http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/en/web/products-press-releases/-/3-18092015-BP

[Tender Branson]

Austria already has #s for the 3rd quarter:

~30.000

http://www.bmi.gv.at/cms/BMI_Asylwesen/statistik/files/2015/Asylstatistik_September_2015.pdf

After 10.000 in Q1 and 18.000 in Q2 (incl. final numbers).

A total of 85.000-90.000 asylum seekers alone are now expected for 2015. That's on top of the regular immigration surplus from other EU countries and the world of ca. 60.000 people this year.

Or put in a different way: the population will grow by a record 1.5% this year (and migration accounts for 99% of this growth and natural increase 1%).

[Tender Branson]

Thanks for this, Tender and ingemann. It seems Austria gets even more applications than Germany and Sweden, relatively, and whereas the high number of migrants in Sweden and Germany seems due to open-border policies, the high number in Austria is largely due to a combination of socio-economic prosperity and geographical location.

At the same time, I don't really understand the chart Tender posted, since it shows that many migrants apply for asylum seeker status in Hungary - but in reality, almost everybody travels along to Western Europe, right? Nobody wants to stay there. So how is the number that large?

Remember that these are Q1 & Q2 figures that do not take into account yet the massive out-movements from Hungary during the recent months, with Orban's hardline policies.

I assume that the people moving into Hungary in the first half of 2015 were registered at the camps there and most filed for asylum, but with Germany's "welcome policy" soon afterwards they moved to Germany and further north.

I would further assume that the initial asylum application numbers for Hungary will come to a standstill in Q4, because no migrant will set foot into Hungary anymore because of Orban's policies ...

[Tender Branson]

Currently, 62.000 asylum seekers in Austria are getting government aid (usually, the basic minimum aid that every person incl. Austrian citizens who often worked years and paid into the system are getting => 850€ a month).

As I've posted above, this number is expected to increase to around 85.000 by the end of the year, because in October alone there have been 11.000 asylum applications here.

http://orf.at/stories/2307874/2307862

Also, a look at the new crime statistics from Jan.-June 2015:

There have been 83 murders (incl. attempts) in the first 6 months of 2015, of which 45 were committed by foreigners. Of the foreigners, 16 were asylum seekers.

In other words:

There are 7.430.000 Austrian citizens who committed 38 murders.

There are 1.210.000 foreigners in Austria who committed 45 murders.

There are 62.000 asylum seekers in Austria who committed 16 murders.

The murder rates (per 100.000 people)

Austrian citizens: 0.5
Foreigners: 3.7
Asylum seekers: 25.8

http://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/XXV/AB/AB_05631/imfname_463492.pdf

[Tender Branson]

But they're all rocket scientists, they will make up for that

1-5% of them probably are (or are smart in some way), but the others are likely to end up as either a drag on society who are going to create a ton of problems, or it will take a huge effort to integrate these hordes of young, unskilled males into our labour forces. I mean, who's going to hire a semi-illiterate Afghan/Iraqi/Syrian/Eritrean 18-year old who cannot speak proper German and has never attended a trade school or some other school that is required for most of Austria's jobs these days, when there are 1000s of skilled Austrians waiting out there to get the same job ?

[Tender Branson]

Have they been surveyed on their skills? I assumed it was mainly the relatively wealthy ones who could afford to pay smugglers...

So what ?

The skills assessment for 1000s of asylum seekers costs what ? ... Money.

The language courses for 1000s of asylum seekers who cannot speak proper German costs what ? ... Money.

Do you expect a Syrian middle-class refugee who enters the labour force to talk English with an Austrian customer ?

As hard as it is to say, these people that are coming in are a big drain on the labour market system (which has to pay for these assessment tests, and then they often move on to Germany and the tests were useless and a waste of money) and the social safety net.

They are costing us way more money than they would ever bring into the system and could end up as an unnecessary competition for Austrian unemployed who are currently looking for jobs that are already getting scarcer and scarcer.

Bottom line: These people that are coming in by the droves now are a pain in the ass for many reasons.

[Tender Branson]

Have they been surveyed on their skills? I assumed it was mainly the relatively wealthy ones who could afford to pay smugglers...

So what ?

The skills assessment for 1000s of asylum seekers costs what ? ... Money.

The language courses for 1000s of asylum seekers who cannot speak proper German costs what ? ... Money.

Do you expect a Syrian middle-class refugee who enters the labour force to talk English with an Austrian customer ?

As hard as it is to say, these people that are coming in are a big drain on the labour market system (which has to pay for these assessment tests, and then they often move on to Germany and the tests were useless and a waste of money) and the social safety net.

They are costing us way more money than they would ever bring into the system and could end up as an unnecessary competition for Austrian unemployed who are currently looking for jobs that are already getting scarcer and scarcer.

Bottom line: These people that are coming in by the droves now are a pain in the ass for many reasons.

So... they will be unemployed and they will take your jobs. Perhaps an assessment of the logical skills of the natives is in order?

No, I said they are currently primarily an unnecessary drag on our social safety net and could end up later as an unnecessary competition to Austrian unemployed.

Which means they are costing us more money now and likely in the future, because they and some Austrian unemployed cannot get the jobs that are getting scarcer ... reckless mass immigration leads to all kinds of problems.

[Tender Branson]

There's also an English term for this:

* cutthroat competition
* predatory competition
* destructive competition

... primarily in lower-paying sectors of the economy. And then some bosses will eventually turn to "cheap labour" and wage dumping because Austrians are getting too expensive and they hire the cheap migrants. Which leads us to semi-slavery ... No sane leftist wants this, right ? But they are creating exactly these situations with their reckless immigration philosophy. And the 1000s of asylum seekers who cannot work ? They are sitting at home doing nothing and often become violent. Another reason why they should remain out of the country. Rather return to, fight for & rebuild their countries, rather than wrecking or destabilising ours.

[Tender Branson]

Austria has ordered heated tents for 20.000 additional migrants/asylum seekers @ the UN today for the coming winter (which can be pretty cold here in the Alps) :

http://derstandard.at/2000025479251/Oesterreich-bestellt-Fluechtlingszelte-bei-der-Uno

Actually, the government wanted to get rid of tents, because ... well ... the bad images. But since there simply is no more public space available in Austria's towns, the government is not getting rid of the ghosts they summoned before. Also, the tents can be forced on any small Austrian town, no matter if the mayor or the population wants them there or not ...

Today, the government updated the number of asylum applications expected this year to 95.000 (up from 80-85.000 so far). Currently, about 500-600 people apply for asylum here every day.

[Tender Branson]

Yeah, not all people like mass peoples movements and you don't need to be a far-right winger for that.

Deal with it, (French) hippies (Benwah, Antonio, etc.) ...

[Tender Branson]

A 17-year old Afghan asylum seeker was sentenced to 12 years in an (Austrian) prison today for stabbing to death another Afghan asylum seeker in front of a Vienna labour market agency.

The guy stabbed the other guy to death because the other guy was a big fan of music. When the 17-year old learned about that, he simply killed him because "the Koran bans music".

...

In another case, an Afghan asylum seeker in Styria beat down his wife, who suffered life-threatening injuries. When asked by the police why he did it, he replied that he didn't knew that you cannot beat up your wife badly in Austria ...

...

These guys should not serve prison time in Austria (paid by our money), but rather be put into the next plane home.

[Tender Branson]

Greek authorities just confirmed that one of the people who likely perpetrated the Paris attacks crossed through Greece as a refugee on October 3, and was a Syrian passport holder.

Say it loud, say it clear...

Don't tell that to our naive left-leftist hippie friends on here.

According to them, the migrants are only bringing flowers with them ...

[Tender Branson]

Waaah, didn't know that on this forum I would find barely better comments than some tweets I can see on news tweet accounts...

These guys should not serve prison time in Austria (paid by our money), but rather be put into the next plane home.

Lol, plane paid by...your...money too.

It's 'amusing' that all the egoistic proposed solutions (plane, short term hostelery, and lol, even prison), are also those that cost the most money to the 'welcoming' society...isn't that really amusing?

Happens in France, they use jets to take some migrants from Calais to other French immigration centers. And what do migrants do?

They don't f**king care to land in that so fancy beautiful south parts of France where they're sent, they go back straight to that muddy and grey so appealing Calais.

And plane continues, again, again, again...

And I don't even speak about attempts to send back people in their country, where you need to buy ticket for 1 or 2 migrants by plane, at most, while thousands arrive each month, plus the 2 or 4 officers that must go with them, and have to come back.

Lol, even money goes against egoism in that case, it's something...

I would charge them for their plane ticket home, but they have no money. Just ours.

But it's better if they [=> the criminal ones and the economic migrants, not to generalize them] are deported quickly, rather than having them on welfare here for the next years - which equals 1000x a plane ticket home.

Also, you have a valid point: Many migrants are simply picky & choosy. If they are brought to a small village in the French Alps, they need to behave and remain there and not go to Calais again. What's wrong with a small town in the French Alps ? Is it wose than their town in Syria or AfPak ? They should be happy to be in a place like this or otherwise be deported if they are not behaving like ordinary people.

[Tender Branson]

Major clashes today between left-left wingers and far-right wingers in Spielfeld this afternoon:

About 1.000 far right demonstrators held a rally in the town to protest the migrant swamp and Islamisation of Europe, while a mob of about 500 left-leftist counter protesters decided to destroy 80 cars from the far-right wingers. After which the far right wingers used wooden rods to beat up the left-left wingers. A huge police presence then managed to solve the heated situation.

Spielfeld is the main migrant entry point on the border of Austria and Slovenia, where between 5.000 and 10.000 migrants enter the country each day.

http://www.kleinezeitung.at/s/steiermark/suedsuedwest/peak_suedsuedwest/4866807/Spielfeld_Demos-eskalierten_Ausschreitungen-rund-um-Bahnhof

[Tender Branson]

Zell am See (my home town), to take up an additional 145 asylum seekers in the next weeks.

http://salzburg.orf.at/news/stories/2742647

Mayor Peter Padourek (ÖVP) during a discussion event yesterday with citizens: "It's doable, we can take up these people because they fled exactly from the same kind of terror that happened in Paris."

Citizens were mixed, with some welcoming them and some voicing concern.

[Tender Branson]

   Any thoughts on what types of people make up the right and left wing protestors in Austria, on this issue?  I'm wondering about social background, education, professions etc.

First, we are only talking about a handful people who are protesting on both sides. Both sides cannot even manage to get 2.000 people on the street to protest.

The Spielfeld protests are mostly organized by Viennese (or even German) student groups (left and right) and some local pissed-off middle class people on the right-winger side. The leftists are basically 100% made up of leftist students, professional (German Black-Block) protesters and naive hippies.

[Tender Branson]

Take a look at what you have done with your reckless positions, you naive left-leftists and your silly political aiders and abettors accross Europe - by enabling this secret terrorist invasion under the cover of "refugees".

A 20-year old Iraqi "refugee" terror and war crime suspect was arrested by SWAT teams near Innsbruck, Austria yesterday (close to where Cranberry lives):

http://www.salzburg.com/nachrichten/oesterreich/politik/sn/artikel/fluechtling-in-tirol-wegen-terrorverdacht-festgenommen-174159

On social media he had glorified the Paris attacks and most likely fought in Iraq as a militant and committed serious crimes against civilians there, according to police evidence.

...

Also, in Bergamo (Italy) 2 terror suspects (also so-called "refugees" and "asylum seekers") have been arrested after illegally sneaking into Italy with fake Norwegian and Austrian passports.

On their smartphones, propaganda pictures of IS and mass killings and militant actions in Syria were found, incl. they themselves in uniforms and fighting poses with weapons ...

[Tender Branson]

Prime Minister Stefan Löfven: Sweden has been 'naive' about terror threat

"Perhaps it's been hard for us to accept that in the middle of our open, democratic society there are people sympathizing with the Isil (Isis) killers," he told journalists at a press conference in Stockholm on Thursday afternoon.
 
The Social Democrat leader added that among the Swedes travelling to Syria and Iraq to fight for Isis there could be people who are also a threat to residents of the Nordic nation.
 
"It's completely unacceptable that people can take part in terrorism and return [to Sweden] without being held responsible," he continued.
 
However the Prime Minister suggested that his country was ill-prepared for the growth of Islamist extremism in the Nordics.
 
"Sweden has been naive, both previous [centre-right] and Social Democrat governments."

http://www.thelocal.se/20151119/swedish-pm-country-naive-about-terror-threat

Correct.

Acknowledgement is the first step towards improvement though and let's hope the other naive clowns powering ahead with their dangerous immigration policies (which includes Mutti Merkel, Faymann etc.) finally wake up from their dream-world.

[Tender Branson]

Tonight during primetime, a 2-hour "citizen forum" about the migrant crisis and terrorism will be held on the ORF (the Austrian public broadcaster).



All 6 party leaders will face an audience of citizens in a town-hall style debate format and for the first time have to answer the questions and concerns of an angry and/or concerned electorate.

About time, because otherwise they are just forcing their dangerous policies down the throats of the Austrian population without even asking them if they like them or not.

http://tv.orf.at/program/orf2/20151124/768871601/404842

[Tender Branson]

Winter is coming.

It dumped ca. 10 inches of snow here the past few days and temps went down to -10°C (14°F) during the nights.

There are also massive storms in the Aegean Sea right now, making the boating to the Greek isles extremely dangerous. It also dumped quite a bit of snow in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia, while it's raining badly in Macedonia/Bulgaria/Northern Greece.

Generally sh*tty and cold situations - which means the migrant flow has been reduced from about 10.000 daily in the previous weeks to about 1.000-2.000 per day now.

Also, Macedonia and Serbia started to "sort out" economic migrants who are not from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan - which means they won't leave in migrants from countries such as Morocco (which is a safe country) etc.

3.000 economic migrants (those who like to pick and choose which country they want to go to) are now at the Macedonia border and some of them today clashed with the police there because they think they "have a right to go to Germany on Mama Merkel's invitation" ...

[Tender Branson]

Turkey has rounded up 1000s of migrants today heading for Greece, hours after the EU pledged to write Turkey a check worth 3 billion €.

Hopefully the Turks continue to do their part and keep the migrants in the country.

[Tender Branson]

More horrible news from the migrant front here in Austria:

* 2 IS terror suspects arrested in Salzburg in a migrant transit camp to Germany
* 2 "Arab"-talking and looking men raping a 14-year old girl in Leoben, Styria
* 25 young Arab males arrested after they started a brutal fight in a Styria asylum camp
* The Vienna AMS introducing gender-segregated job training courses for asylum seekers, after many young Arab males objected to being in class together with women

http://www.thelocal.at/20151204/two-terror-suspects-nabbed-in-salzburg

http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2744747

http://www.thelocal.at/20151204/25-arrests-after-fight-in-asylum-centre

http://www.thelocal.at/20151203/kurz-slams-single-sex-courses-for-refugees