The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities.

I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks.

As do I.

So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS?  You make more than them and are not fired.

Not fired for making too much money... fired for skipping out on their jobs.  Did you really need to resort to a strawman argument to attempt to prove a point?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Not fired for making too much money... fired for skipping out on their jobs.  Did you really need to resort to a strawman argument to attempt to prove a point?

They're striking, Inks.

Yes, and causing schools to have to shut down in the process.  So, they would be fired for not going to work, not because they make too much money.  Glad you realized the true reason for why they should be fired.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

You don't think this sets a bad precedent?  If they're allowed to get away with this now, you don't think it'll turn into the Democrats (or Republicans in the future, perhaps) skipping town to keep the roll call under quorum for every "important" fight that comes up?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason.

Yes.

http://www.slate.com/id/2285532/

"The chief clerk shall immediately call the roll of the members, and note the absentees, whose names shall be read, and entered upon the journal in such manner as to show who are absent with leave and who are absent without leave. The chief clerk shall furnish the sergeant at arms with a list of those who are absent without leave, and the sergeant at arms shall forthwith proceed to find and bring in such absentees."

That is absolutely and utterly insane.

I'm not sure how many states have these laws, but they do seem to be rather impractical, don't they?

It keeps things like this from happening though... makes sense to me.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation.

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

Well, the majority can't do anything without a quorum, so it does relate to procedure.

But I'm guessing that you'd oppose the Sergeant at Arms bringing these people back into the chamber... as is legal procedure?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation.

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

It's like going on strike, regardless of which side of the Wisconsin-Illinois border they are on -- but striking is not the same abandonment of responsibility that the phrase "leaving your job" would imply

Their job is to vote.  They're failing to do that... legislator can't just "go on strike" when a bill comes up that they don't like.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.  And the legislature can't do anything budget related while they're gone (not that I defend filibustering everything either).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation.

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

It's like going on strike, regardless of which side of the Wisconsin-Illinois border they are on -- but striking is not the same abandonment of responsibility that the phrase "leaving your job" would imply

Their job is to vote.  They're failing to do that... legislator can't just "go on strike" when a bill comes up that they don't like.

Filibuster?

That's within the rules of Congress/legislatures.  Not showing up is a violation of the rules (and hence the reason the SaA can drag them back).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies?

Like any other business.  You're implying that they accomplish nothing.  If that were the case, there would be nothing to filibuster...

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies?

Like any other business.  You're implying that they accomplish nothing.  If that were the case, there would be nothing to filibuster...

Exactly. Remember when Dick Shelby put a blanket hold on everything because the administration denied him money for some pork barrel project?
Or when the Republicans declared than they would filibuster everything if the senate didn't pass the tax cuts for the rich?

What's your point?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

What's your point?

That after abusing filibuster for the last two years in such an unprecedented way, Republicans have no right to complain about what Democratic legislators do in Wisconsin right now.

His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it.

Bingo! Semantics are irrelevant.

I complained about the methods the Republicans used.  And you've actually proved my point...these methods have a tendency to progress and get worse.  So while the Democrats in WI may only be doing this now for a major bill, it could turn into a usual thing after a while.

But no, these 2 things are not the same.  There is a difference between a filibuster and skipping town.  One is within the rules, and one is not.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

It may not be illegal, per se, but they're not excused from being absent.  (But I'm off to bed... so if you post, I'll reply in the morning, I'm not ignoring you. )

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I seriously hope that these teachers have their pay docked and are disciplined... calling in sick when you're not really sick is unnacceptable.  If I did that 3 days in a row and didn't bring in a doctor's note, I'd be fired.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Oh, and Russ Feingold apparently joined the protest today: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/russ-feingold-wisconsin-protests_n_825325.html

Russ Feingold is a good man.  Never before have I seen such an honorable man in politics.  While I disagree with him on most all of the issues, I take his presence here as a symbol that he truly agrees with the protestors.  If I were a Wisconsin voter, I honestly don't know if I could vote for the Republican over him.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

... calling in sick when you're not really sick is unnacceptable.  If I did that 3 days in a row and didn't bring in a doctor's note, I'd be fired.

That's terrible.  Where do you work, you poor man?  Some warehouse dock?

At my work I frequently leave for days at a time without telling anyone.  Just show up when I have classes or a meeting. 

Food service department at a historical attraction.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Food service department at a historical attraction.

So how do you survive?  And don't you find your poverty would tend to serve as an argument near-at-hand in favor of unions?

I actually like making money, so I show up to work.  And I'm not exactly in poverty.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Food service department at a historical attraction.

So how do you survive?  And don't you find your poverty would tend to serve as an argument near-at-hand in favor of unions?

I actually like making money, so I show up to work.  And I'm not exactly in poverty.

Still living off parents.

Yes, I still live with my parents... for another couple of years... what's your point?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Isn't it possible that this is just a trick to get the Democrats to come back?  Otherwise, I do object to the fact that 24 hours notice wasn't given.