Obama government will stop defending the DOMA

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Obama's health care plans's constitutionality has only been successfully challenged in 1 out of... 12 tries... not exactly a track record destined for failure. I would bet if it came up before the SCOTUS, only Scalia, Thomas and Alito would vote for repeal. The rest would either affirm it, or send it back.

On DOMA, it's the right thing to do.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I wonder if certain liberals here still think Obama is not liberal enough?

Lol, he's as liberal as David Cameron on that front.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I wonder if certain liberals here still think Obama is not liberal enough?

Lol. Obama is barely liberal. I don't understand how you could realistically define him as anything other than a charismatic centrist.

If National Journal's most liberal Senator in 2007 is not a liberal, then who is a liberal, exactly?

Obviously using the GOP definition of the liberal, which is anything to left of them...

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I wonder if certain liberals here still think Obama is not liberal enough?

Lol. Obama is barely liberal. I don't understand how you could realistically define him as anything other than a charismatic centrist.

*FACEPALM*

You have a strange definition of centrism. Obama is perhaps the most liberal president we've ever had. I don't know how that could be considered centrist, not even from a far-leftist perspective.

No, US Conservatives have a strange definition of centreism. Largely because they've spent the last 30 years shifting the centre of American politics to the right, and insisting on the Democrats meeting them in the middle...

I wonder if certain liberals here still think Obama is not liberal enough?

Lol. Obama is barely liberal. I don't understand how you could realistically define him as anything other than a charismatic centrist.

If National Journal's most liberal Senator in 2007 is not a liberal, then who is a liberal, exactly?

Obviously using the GOP definition of the liberal, which is anything to left of them...

Nice try.  National Journal is not a partisan publication.

There was no 'try', I wasn't responding to the specific article. Even though I think those ratings are incredibly subjective what is a liberal vote? who defines a liberal issue?


----

Also, consider this, Obama can be the most liberal president ever, and still be a centreist...

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I wonder if certain liberals here still think Obama is not liberal enough?

Lol. Obama is barely liberal. I don't understand how you could realistically define him as anything other than a charismatic centrist.

*FACEPALM*

You have a strange definition of centrism. Obama is perhaps the most liberal president we've ever had. I don't know how that could be considered centrist, not even from a far-leftist perspective.

lol.. I love it when the far right claims every centrist Democrat is "zomgz teh most liberalist ever in the whole wide world!@!"

The type of person I consider a liberal is former governor Floyd B. Olson (Farmer-Labor Party-MN)

Who said this, regarding the conservatives in the state legislature:

"I am making a last appeal to the Legislature. If the Senate does not make provision for the sufferers in the State and the Federal Government refuses to aid, I shall invoke the powers I hold and shall declare martial law. ... A lot of people who are now fighting [relief] measures because they happen to possess considerable wealth will be brought in by provost guard and be obliged to give up more than they would now. There is not going to be misery in this State if I can humanly prevent it. . . Unless the Federal and State governments act to insure against recurrence of the present situation, I hope the present system of government goes right down to hell."

I like it when "liberals" admit to being fascists, it makes things much easier.  Luckily, among your merry band of "liberals," only Castro, Chavez, and Chavez's Bolivian friend remain as of this week.  One presumably down, 3 to go.

I'm glad you used the " " since there is nothing genuinely liberal about any of those three people...

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I wonder if certain liberals here still think Obama is not liberal enough?

Lol. Obama is barely liberal. I don't understand how you could realistically define him as anything other than a charismatic centrist.

*FACEPALM*

You have a strange definition of centrism. Obama is perhaps the most liberal president we've ever had. I don't know how that could be considered centrist, not even from a far-leftist perspective.

No, US Conservatives have a strange definition of centreism. Largely because they've spent the last 30 years shifting the centre of American politics to the right, and insisting on the Democrats meeting them in the middle...

Name one thing Obama has done that's anywhere near centrist. I certainly don't consider his position on the DOMA or gay marriage to be centrist. But I can understand why you consider even full-blown gay marriage to be "centrist"; after all, you're in Australia, which is probably much further left than the US.

Which illustrates my point.

The US definition of centreist is completely skewed away from the conventional wisdom of what the centre is.

Australia is hardly some leftist paradise... we're socially liberal in the fact that a minority are actively socially left of centre and another minority don't give a s**t... Gay marriage/civil unions have high support in Australia not because of it being a left-wing haven, but because a lot of people don't care enough to complain, and the Australian ideal of 'fairness' "well it doesn't seem fair that they don't have the same rights I do" kicks in.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I wonder if certain liberals here still think Obama is not liberal enough?

Lol. Obama is barely liberal. I don't understand how you could realistically define him as anything other than a charismatic centrist.

*FACEPALM*

You have a strange definition of centrism. Obama is perhaps the most liberal president we've ever had. I don't know how that could be considered centrist, not even from a far-leftist perspective.

lol.. I love it when the far right claims every centrist Democrat is "zomgz teh most liberalist ever in the whole wide world!@!"

The type of person I consider a liberal is former governor Floyd B. Olson (Farmer-Labor Party-MN)

Who said this, regarding the conservatives in the state legislature:

"I am making a last appeal to the Legislature. If the Senate does not make provision for the sufferers in the State and the Federal Government refuses to aid, I shall invoke the powers I hold and shall declare martial law. ... A lot of people who are now fighting [relief] measures because they happen to possess considerable wealth will be brought in by provost guard and be obliged to give up more than they would now. There is not going to be misery in this State if I can humanly prevent it. . . Unless the Federal and State governments act to insure against recurrence of the present situation, I hope the present system of government goes right down to hell."

I like it when "liberals" admit to being fascists, it makes things much easier.  Luckily, among your merry band of "liberals," only Castro, Chavez, and Chavez's Bolivian friend remain as of this week.  One presumably down, 3 to go.

I'm glad you used the " " since there is nothing genuinely liberal about any of those three people...

I'm the only "genuine liberal" on this page, but the scare quotes were because that appears to be Snowguy's definition of "liberal."

Lol... you're the walking definition of the anarchist libertarian...

I believe in the ability of the state to be able to assist people who are suffering... but Snowguy's quote is on the outer limits for me.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Obama (even if we accept the skewed and subjective definitions)

2005 82.5 16th
2006 86 10th
-------
2007 95.5 1st

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Because your view is the centreist view?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Because your view is the centreist view?

No. I don't claim to be a centrist, but I also don't consider Obama to be one, and I maintain that position.

That's a pretty reasonable position to hold. I think you're wrong-ish, but eh...

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

This effect has been explained before. Democratic nominees for president from the Senate tend to get rated as highly liberal by even objective sources while they are campaigning for the White House because they often take fewer votes due to spending less time in DC and they often only vote when their vote is needed by the party or for highly important legislation. As such, there is a heavy selection bias and the rating, while not biased in an intentionally partisan or ideological way, tends to skew reality toward the extremes; it makes sense that in 2007 or 2008 even while Obama was spending most of his time campaigning that his 'liberal score' would be high.

Scores from 2005 or 2006 should be more reflective of his natural leanings.

Care to guess who had the most liberal Senate voting record of all Democratic nominees in 2006, per National Journal?  Hint.

Why do you people always obsessively focus on the stupid ratings lists instead of actually pointing out the list of the evil liberal things they've said and done instead?

You can talk talk talk about Obama's crazy-liberal record but it's not reflected in almost anything he's actually done.

changing the goal-posts - now most liberal candidate in 2006...

When was 10th most liberal... or 15th in 2005...

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Exactly... classical liberals believed in 'limited government' - but the it's the NEO-classicals who are angling more towards your idea of smallest level of government possible...

But yes, I would love to see ANY quote from a recognised early liberal thinker who considers government to be an evil?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

This effect has been explained before. Democratic nominees for president from the Senate tend to get rated as highly liberal by even objective sources while they are campaigning for the White House because they often take fewer votes due to spending less time in DC and they often only vote when their vote is needed by the party or for highly important legislation. As such, there is a heavy selection bias and the rating, while not biased in an intentionally partisan or ideological way, tends to skew reality toward the extremes; it makes sense that in 2007 or 2008 even while Obama was spending most of his time campaigning that his 'liberal score' would be high.

Scores from 2005 or 2006 should be more reflective of his natural leanings.

Care to guess who had the most liberal Senate voting record of all Democratic nominees in 2006, per National Journal?  Hint.

Why do you people always obsessively focus on the stupid ratings lists instead of actually pointing out the list of the evil liberal things they've said and done instead?

You can talk talk talk about Obama's crazy-liberal record but it's not reflected in almost anything he's actually done.

changing the goal-posts - now most liberal candidate in 2006...

When was 10th most liberal... or 15th in 2005...

The 10th most liberal Senator is still more liberal than 90 of his colleagues.  How is that is not liberal enough for you or others who are denying that Obama is a liberal is beyond my comprehension.

The guy is a liberal.  He enacted socialized medicine despite overwhelming opposition, wants to hike taxes on the so-called rich, is pro-abortion and despite attempts to hide it, wants gay marriage.  He comes down on the liberal side of every contested issue today.  That he doesn't have the power to enact what he wishes is a different story.

I think he is a liberal, but is governing as a moderate.

He put in place Bob Dole's healthcare plan from 1994 (which is miles to the right of Nixon's health plan from 1974), he wants to increase taxes on the richest 1% and scale back unsustainable tax cuts... big deal (which the majority of the country supported), is pro-choice (as is the larger plurality of America) and supports full legal recognition of gay unions (in which the most recent poll had 52% supporting full legal equivalence - another which had 49% believing that gays and lesbians had the constitutional right to be married and 52% believing they should)...

So while conservatives who have had the social agenda by the neck for the last 30 years, are freaking out by how times have shifted past them ... this is not a radical leftist agenda... despite what you might believe.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

...and you seem to lack basic manners.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

...and you seem to lack basic manners.

Well, when I make a reference to what's possibly the most famous quote in the classical liberal tradition (to the point that it is referenced in glib 5th-grade textbook paragraphs and could well be used as the clue to "What is Classical Liberalism?" on Jeopardy), and you make a ridiculous, obviously and laughably untrue statement, I think I can call you out on it.

I made an error... I accept that, I got heated and frustrated... it happens.

You're more than welcome to call me out on a mistake, as I am toward your questionable interpretation of liberalism.

But as you usually do, you couldn't do it reasonably.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Paine isn’t the best guy to be quoting for your case either, what with his support for guaranteed minimum income, estate taxes, and welfare for seniors, among other things. (see Agrarian Justice)

Thank you!

I was having a brain melt as why I had a problem with Paine being used... that's why... God classical political theory was so long ago...

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Holy crap, he forgot to be a moderate hero on an issue.

How do you get more moderate hero than this? He's not legalizing gay marriage or repealing DOMA, he's simply not enforcing it through his administration.

He doesn't have the power to repeal DOMA or legalize gay marriage--that falls to Congress, which was never going to do it under Pelosi, let alone Boehner. Congress is scared to death to be more progressive than the mainstream 60-year-old on gay rights.

Exactly, he's essentially doing the only thing he can do, which is to stop the Justice Dept from acting on DOMA.