Doctor stops potential mass shooting by shooting the shooter (user search)
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  Doctor stops potential mass shooting by shooting the shooter (search mode)
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Author Topic: Doctor stops potential mass shooting by shooting the shooter  (Read 3667 times)
Franzl
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« on: July 25, 2014, 05:18:03 PM »

I can also agree with the chorus that this man is an FF.

But for those that might be tempted to use this as a political argument (often while coming up with all sorts of crackpot reasons why it's immoral, dishonest, whatever the other way around in other cases), spare us the BS. For every example of guns helping you get 10 or more examples to the contrary.
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Franzl
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 02:57:19 AM »

I can also agree with the chorus that this man is an FF.

But for those that might be tempted to use this as a political argument (often while coming up with all sorts of crackpot reasons why it's immoral, dishonest, whatever the other way around in other cases), spare us the BS. For every example of guns helping you get 10 or more examples to the contrary.
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting
3. http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/1996/the-chronicle,-muskegon,-mi,-82395.aspx?s=%22%27All+In!%27%22&st=&ps=
4. http://blutube.policeone.com/police-training-videos/935831023001-jeanne-assam-and-the-new-life-church-shooting/
5. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2911219/posts
6. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1446
7. http://theguntoter.com/citizen-stops-mass-slaying-at-golden-food-market/
8. http://www.ktxs.com/news/RV-PARK-KILLINGS-Witness-shooter-recounts-shootout-with-gunman-who-killed-two-in-Early/15933066
9. http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/2014/homeowner-fights-off-burglar,-wrtv,-indianapolis,-ind-072214.aspx?s=&st=&ps=
10. http://www.yourcentralvalley.com/story/d/story/robbery/37544/QYol8e0JSU2jJyeFLtvZXQ

Many more examples can be found here: http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

Please provide me with 10 counterexamples for every single story at that link, but start by giving 100 for every story I linked to.




Um, no? I'm not going to waste my time listing incidents of gun violence for you. There are plenty in the press for you to read about.
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Franzl
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Posts: 22,254
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2014, 03:21:57 AM »

Um, no? I'm not going to waste my time listing incidents of gun violence for you. There are plenty in the press for you to read about.
Sure, but the mere existence of gun violence does nothing to validate your claim that gun ownership has a net negative impact on society.

I suppose the existence of diabetes also does nothing to validate someone's claim that obesity has a net negative impact on society either.

Look, there's no definitive proof in debates like these. One can observe correlations and come to reasonable conclusions. You obviously don't believe the presence of guns causes them to be used more frequently than if they weren't so plentiful. That's ok. There are a lot of people in the States that believe the Earth is 6000 years old too.
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Franzl
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Posts: 22,254
Germany


« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2014, 03:46:17 AM »
« Edited: July 27, 2014, 03:51:31 AM by Franzl »

For example, if the number of nuclear warheads was reduced by 90%, but the remaining 10% were reserved for brutal, warlike autocracies, the result would be an increase in use. Or, to go back to the example of drugs, drug legalization would probably increase the number of drug users. But, there would also be a decrease in drug-related crime because control of drugs would no longer be reserved to criminals.

So it follows that giving every country nuclear warheads would be a good idea to decrease their usage? Somehow, I doubt that to be the case.

The thing about drugs is that, in theory, they only harm the user. In practice, of course, addiction causes harm to a lot more people, and I'm sure there would still be ample violence.

I also get the feeling that every time guns are debated in an American context, one is forced to discuss it on an entirely theoretical level without looking to the results in other places. Why is this the case? Is the USA so absolutely unique that the evidence everywhere else doesn't apply? (Granted, I can see the argument that guns are so hideously common in the States, that gun control at this point couldn't do much to get them all out of circulation.) But that still wouldn't contradict that the presence of so much gun violence is largely because of the fact that they're omnipresent in the US.



Of course, I don't expect this discussion to go anywhere. Dogma is more important than real observations in the gun debate. And the arguments and counter-arguments always stay the same.
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Franzl
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Posts: 22,254
Germany


« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2014, 07:48:40 AM »

Well, the fact that gun laws and gun crime in the US are uncorrelated isn't particularly surprising when laws are so decentralized and easy to get around. It's impossible for states with open borders to prevent weapons from other jurisdictions being brought in.

And for that reason, including the fact that there are just so many weapons in circulation, I'm not arguing that state (or local) level gun laws are or would be very effective.

I'm sure other factors play a role in the American murder rates too, I'm happy to concede the Drug War contributes to it, but it seems indefensible to claim, as I think you're doing, that the presence of guns (which are easier to get than a beer in some places) don't have a large effect on gun related crime.

It's clear that gun control does work where there's the political will to go about it seriously.
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