St Louis police murder scandal (PLUS: riots, idiotic press conferences, etc.)

[dead0man]

What's your threshold for what's considered rioting? Is it anything the police declare to be rioting?

Shooting at cops and each other and the throwing of Molotov cocktails would qualify.  Which all happened last night.  cite

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Yes, of course...have you seen these

Kinda weird that the man would buy his sh**t and then harass the owner and then the owner would call in a robbery isn't it?

[dead0man]

Perhaps because he knew someone else called?  Perhaps he doesn't want his store to be the target of the rioters like the QT down the street was when it was wrongly thought it was the store that was robbed.  Notice he didn't say Mr Brown didn't rob the store.

[dead0man]

Yep.


Do you have any idea why they are still rioting?  Does it make any sense to you?

[dead0man]

What's your definition of rioting?

Again (seriously, do I have to repeat everything to you three times?), they were shooting ...>SHOOTING, at the cops (who did NOT return fire) and each other.  They were throwing fire bombs.  Does that not reach "riot" level to you?

No one can justify what the police are doing currently and have been doing for a whole week (seriously dead0man wtf)

Where have I tried to justify the cops actions during the protests? (other than right above here where I said they didn't shoot back at assholes shooting at them...I don't know if that even counts as "justifying".)

Do you have any idea why they are still rioting?  Does it make any sense to you?

Because there are much larger issues at play here? The shooting was just the figurative spark of a powder keg in a community where it's been clear that there has been some racial tensions building up. One just has to look at the police actions in the week since to see that.

Yea, obviously those using violence and looting or whatever are douchebags but do we even know what percentage of the crowds this actually is?

I'd assume quite small overall.  None (or at least a tiny fraction) at all during the day time, but at night....it's probably pretty close to a majority.  Most of them not being locals, but asshats coming in from other places just to start sh**t.

[dead0man]

I don't say this often but....OMG....

What's your threshold for what's considered rioting? Is it anything the police declare to be rioting?

Shooting at cops and each other and the throwing of Molotov cocktails would qualify.  Which all happened last night.  cite

I'm starting to think you only read what you want to read.  That little "cite" word up there is a link.  In that link Capt Ron Johnson (the Capt Ron Johnson that walked with the protesters last week (this is a link too) when he came in to take over for the local PD) is quoted as saying...

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They were also talking about it on MSNBC this morning.  It's also CNN's front page.

[dead0man]

The looting is just a lot of insurance company paperwork.

I don't have the words...

[dead0man]

It's quite obvious there was a robbery at the store, otherwise why would he be shoving the owner like that? Just for fun? That is even worse. And it's not as if he was underage and couldn't buy those legally. Maybe he didn't have his ID on him and still wanted the cigars, in which case that is even more idiotic.

I read that the store owner only walked out from behind the counter because he was upset that Michael Brown had reached over the counter for his cigars. Perhaps Brown was irritated that he had been called out on this, and was shoved.

In fact, there's a video of Michael Brown actually paying for the cigars, with the cashier visibly handling the money he was given.

Get off Tumblr bro.  They DID steal the cigars, his buddy has confirmed it and did so almost a week ago.  THIS IS A CITE!!!!!111one.  Here comes a quote from that cite

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[dead0man]

I don't have the playbook you guys are using, but I think you're supposed to ignore the above and show pictures of white guys with guns again...maybe add some ignorance like "THEY USING BIPLANES ON THE PEACEFUL PROTESTORS NOW!?!?" or try and explain how the rioting really isn't rioting because they have an excuse.


or the always popular "attack the poster who disagrees with you with insults because you're not smart enough to discuss things with people you disagree with".

[dead0man]

Also it looks like the St. Louis police murdered another black guy yesterday and are already lying about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/20/kajieme-powell-shooting_n_5696546.html?1408579745&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

This is absolutely ridiculous. Who wants to defend this now? Do we not have all the facts on this one either? Why do we condone murder by the police?

The dude did have a knife, he was walking up to the cops, he did just steal sh**t, he was literally asking for the cops to shoot him and his actions were showing that it wasn't just words.  Ok, he wasn't 3 or 4 feet away...he was 5 or 6 feet away (kind of hard to tell at the angle and distance...could be as far as 10 feet I suppose)...how close does an armed crazy guy need to get to a cop before it's ok to shoot him?

[dead0man]

Also it looks like the St. Louis police murdered another black guy yesterday and are already lying about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/20/kajieme-powell-shooting_n_5696546.html?1408579745&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

This is absolutely ridiculous. Who wants to defend this now? Do we not have all the facts on this one either? Why do we condone murder by the police?

The dude did have a knife, he was walking up to the cops, he did just steal sh**t, he was literally asking for the cops to shoot him and his actions were showing that it wasn't just words.  Ok, he wasn't 3 or 4 feet away...he was 5 or 6 feet away (kind of hard to tell at the angle and distance...could be as far as 10 feet I suppose)...how close does an armed crazy guy need to get to a cop before it's ok to shoot him?

Closer than where he was. The problem with the police is that they know they are not going to be accountable for their actions and so they do whatever they feel like. Just because you have been given the authority to shoot to kill when the situation warrants it, that does not mean you don't have the responsibility of avoiding that situation to the best of your ability (even if it is waiting a second longer). The guy deserved to be in a mental institution (aka jail in America), not dead.

Didn't I just hear that a cop was suspended?  Police officer suspended for pointing rifle at protesters, threatening them

They could have Tazered him, but those aren't as foolproof as a 9mm.  (there are a million youtubes of dudes not reacting at all to Tazers) Especially when dealing with someone acting a bit nutty.  They could have whipped out their billy clubs and attempted to beat the sh**t out of him, but that's how cops get killed.  Cops don't have to risk their lives (and I'm 95% sure the Supremes have backed them up on this, but my Google Fu seems a bit off tonight) to detain an armed crazy guy.

Oh yeah, them lying about it might be even worse than the shooting itself. What are your thoughts on that Dead0man? When you give the police the license to do what they want without oversight, they will abuse it. It's just human nature.

I agree with you.  I think every cop should have the "hat cam" things, it should be as standard as handcuffs and a sidearm.  The tech is there, obviously, and if bought in huge numbers, probably not all that expensive.  A cop could easily have 3 on him and each car should at least have 4, one pointing in each direction.  Like you said, without oversight, certain people will abuse their authority.  If every cop knows every action he/she takes is being watched (or at least will be watched if something actually happens) nearly every cop is going to do sh**t as by the book as he/she can.  With the added benefit of backing up the cop's story when they are right.

[dead0man]

I'm guessing most people don't rob stores, physically hassle store owners and physically attack a cop when they are "teens".  The closest most of them get is just impotently whinging about cops on the internet.

[dead0man]

You missed hand waving away the part about physically assaulting a shop owner.

[dead0man]

Do we have any good evidence of this?

The assault of the store owner, yes, lots.  The assault of the cop, less evidence.  There was certainly some physical nonsense going on at the door of the cop car, unclear as to who started it.  The guy ran, then stopped then the stories start to go in different directions.  He wasn't shot in the back like a lot of the initial "stories" suggested.

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I'm just after the truth (which sounds like something a truther would say), if the cop is guilty of murdering the man in cold blood, he should never be let out of prison.  If he's innocent, he should be allowed to go about the rest of his life unharassed.  If it's something in between, he shouldn't be a cop no more and possibly spend some time in prison.

Yes, I tend to respect authority, but I also think people in positions of authority should be punished to a far greater extent when they abuse that power than people doing the same acts without the position of power.  cite

[dead0man]

You missed hand waving away the part about physically assaulting a shop owner.

I saw the video of the push, yeah, and I don't agree this is unusual

You think it's NORMAL for 18 year old men to push around employees at a convenience store?  It's most certainly not.  I'd be shocked if it's more than 10% of the population and I'd also bet that entire 10% is full of pieces of sh**t.

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Nor do I or anybody else that isn't a racist.  If he attacked the cop, he deserves to get shot.  If he didn't, the cop should spend a long long time in jail.

[dead0man]

If he attacked the cop, he deserves to get shot.  If he didn't, the cop should spend a long long time in jail.

Do you believe that Brown attacked the cop?

I'm 95% certain he tried to keep the cop from getting out of the car.  I don't know if that counts as "attacking" or not, but it's certainly not something a person should do, it's not going to lead to good things for them.

(and the first person to say "keeping a cop from getting out of the car shouldn't be an immediate death sentence" is going on ignore)

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I'd be shocked if it happened exactly as anybody said it went down...ummm...that's not clear.  Let me try again.  I wouldn't trust any single person's story 100%.  Especially after they let their defenses or biases set in.  People see things wrong, people see things happen that didn't happen and often miss important details.

Also note that this encounter happened during day time, the policeman was not aware, as you are, that he shoplifted cigarrillos and pushed the store owner and so was a dangerous criminal who is responsible for any violence done to him

He said he didn't know he was the suspect when he frist stopped and told them to get out of the street.  He then went on to say that during the exchange of words he noticed the stolen items in Brown's hand and put 2 and 2 together.

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That doesn't make any sense, BROWN knew he was a targeted criminal and would have assumed the cop thought so too.  What would make you think otherwise?

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Yes, which is why we haven't just taken the cop's word for it.  Which is why there are investigations by 2 (3?) different organizations.

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Why did the cop wait 6 years to "exercise his power"?  Why would a sane and sober criminal walk down the middle of the street minutes after committing a felony?

[dead0man]

In case it isn't clear, I do not assume or have any reason to believe that Darren Wilson is a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone.

Then you're in the minority here.  Welcome.

[dead0man]

In case it isn't clear, I do not assume or have any reason to believe that Darren Wilson is a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone.

Then you're in the minority here.  Welcome.

Who makes up this supposed majority?

Seriously?

[dead0man]

In case it isn't clear, I do not assume or have any reason to believe that Darren Wilson is a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone.

Then you're in the minority here.  Welcome.

Who makes up this supposed majority?

Seriously?

Seriously. Perhaps some believe that but a majority? I don't think that's an accurate representation. I hate using the term but it seems a bit "strawman" to be honest.

It's rather bold to believe that he "set out to kill someone." It seems obvious at this point that there was some form of conflict between the two but the question is to what level?

Furthermore, really the entire crux of this story, to me at least, is the idea of reasonable force, whether it was with Brown himself or in response to the protests afterwards, and to what degree the relationship between minority communities and law enforcement plays into such a situation - especially in a community where the numbers are so skewed between the two groups. 

I think Gravis Marketing's post nails it pretty well, and is what I interpret the consensus to be, although I admittedly may be misreading it. You curiously left out the second part of his post, which is as important of as the first and really is where the issue is here:

You don't have to believe that of a police office to envision scenarios where the police kills someone without justification and without real risk to themselves, especially in a community like Ferguson.

Aye, point conceded.  You're probably correct.

[dead0man]

DOJ report

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What I'm guessing happened is this:
1.Mr Brown and his buddy steal some little cigars, store owner confronts them, he physically hassles/threatens the store owner
2.Mr. Brown and buddy leave store
3.several cops are called to the area
4.one of the cop cars (an SUV) sees Brown and buddy walking down the street and asks them to get out of the street
5.Brown assumes that these cops are here to bust him so tries to not get caught, he does that by trying to make sure the cops can't get out of the car
6.when he realizes that ain't going to work he tries to run
7.when he realizes THAT's not going to work he tries to go after the cops again
8.the cops shoot him as he's running towards them
9.everybody freaks out

Yes, these are not the actions of a rational man, which makes me think he was probably high on goofballs.

All just a guess, but it's much more likely than the version of what most people seem to assume what happened.  I'm not saying the cops made no mistakes, then or afterwords.  I'm saying it's ridiculous to freak out, assume the worst before the evidence is in or the investigation is complete.

Nailed it in one.  What do I win?

Yes, I understand the narrative has moved past the actual shooting (like it should have when the evidence was clearly not on Brown's side back in the middle of August, but it can be hard to stop an idiot train) on to other, bigger picture issues surrounding the case.

but gloating is fun!