France General Discussion

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

http://www.france24.com/fr/20090914-france-bien-etre-mesure-croissance-economique-stiglitz-sarkozy-rapport

In English:

http://www.france24.com/en/20090914-france-advocates-new-ways-measure-growth-based-well-being-gdp-stiglitz-report-nobel-economics-sarkozy-statistics

Everything is good to seduce the opinion. The Left/Right stuff is really screwed in terms of ideas, and Sarkozy is really a populist, if we are very indulgent we could say he is pragmatic here, but well...

It's funny how he really turns into leftist speeches when it's about all what concerns the crisis, haha, Sarkozy, the best ally of Besancenot. "If nothing changes, people will be right in revolting themselves", he kept repeating this since the beginning.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

It's funny how he really turns into leftist speeches when it's about all what concerns the crisis, haha, Sarkozy, the best ally of Besancenot. "If nothing changes, people will be right in revolting themselves", he kept repeating this since the beginning.

That's AL's thing since Day 1 of their existence.

Sorry for my ignorance but here I think I need an explanation for what "AL" means?

Don't think that's one of them:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/AL

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

It's funny how he really turns into leftist speeches when it's about all what concerns the crisis, haha, Sarkozy, the best ally of Besancenot. "If nothing changes, people will be right in revolting themselves", he kept repeating this since the beginning.

That's AL's thing since Day 1 of their existence.

Sorry for my ignorance but here I think I need an explanation for what "AL" means?

Don't think that's one of them:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/AL

Alternative libérale, France's libertarian party.

Haha, them, yes, I know who they are, why the hell I didn't have their acronym in mind??!

Héhé, yes, that's right, they are a bit on that too. Still about that big mix, I remember about Dupont Aignan saying to José Bové in a show on France 3, before euros iirc "you know, I think we're not so far...". The Left/Right stuff is really screwed in terms of ideas. Postures, attitudes, that's what's on.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Well, the point being that personally I think that we wouldn't have seen that fast growing up of MoDem (about 60,000 adherents within a few weeks, that's something) if it had been something ideological, so I don't put into the fact that the MoDem is the place of the "real centrism" and of some "real centrists". (come on, will you now believe the story telling of Bayrou??! ).

Bayrou's brand of centrism is exactly that. It's non-ideological whining. Bayrou isn't a Christian democratic moderate Europhile centrist anymore.

The MoDem ain't having anything to do with the brand of centrism professed by the MRP or UDF in the good old days.

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I'm sorry, but I don't find an boring whiny idiot an interesting politician. All the guy is good at is complaining about how everybody's wrong and mean.

This guy offers nothing concrete.

Well, actually, listen to good interview of him, made by good journalists. This guy is able to think, to have some distance, to clearly expose some arguments and to legitimate them and to place them in perspective with the reality. He's just a very bad tactician in politics, and yes, has annoying attitude, I've always acknowledged all of this, and as said, I always said this compared to others, go to find what I spoke about in Sarkozy, even Strauss Kahn, though you may be aware about that, seems you're aware our political leaders are not that "great" today.

Second, about the old UDF, well, if you effectively listens to these interviews you could see that everything is still here in him, and very well displayed by him. The point being just what we seem to be agree on: "who care about all of this today??" who care about all these old references, about all these old politician ways which appear as non senses in the world of today. Bayrou has, of course, as all politicians in France, even Dupont-Aignant I think (so to say), felt that and knows that today the politics the question of attitude we spoke about, so he appears as a very poor politician.

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Exactly my point. If the MoDem is made of these peope, they won't be pleased to see the MoDem become PRG version 2, if it does come to that (unlikely, but still).[/quote]

If the MoDem is made of these people they just don't care about this leaning to the left, especially given the fact I think most of them would lean to the left, given that Bayrou mainly personifies a leftist sensibility/attitude.

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40% of MoDemers being centre-right? Not anymore, my friend.[/quote]

If you mean that there are more left, then you would comfort me in my vision, I said "big maximum", I'd very easily give more place to the left in MoDem.

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It will be hard since everybody on the left is an egomaniac who hate each other. Good luck getting everybody from the Stalinist Gremetz to the devout Catholic Bayrou to agree on anything, lefties or not.

Hmm, Gremetz, come on, let's talk about vibrant things (and especially Gremetz, who does this man represent except himself??). Well, the left is screwed today, right? There will be an other election (regionals) and then let's go for the primaries, and this will last say about 1,5 year. This is a huge occasion for the left to make up its mind and to use such an important thing, large primaries, to make merge something. The left side of this country is an orphan today, and the anti-right feelings are more and more presents, so (far-left possibilities put aside) this is a big occasion for left to find a new way to exist in this country, it's currently more than ever killing what it has been, once they would have done the most damages they could to themselves, and they already done a big part, they could just find a new way to answer to this leftist side of the country which more than ever wants something efficient and wants something new.

That's why I think these primaries could really work and could really give a big movement on the left, UMP style. I also think that pink wouldn't necessary be the biggest color, the Green clearly shows having some accuracy in the world of today, and they speak of concrete things which make sense for people, so, if Greens know how not to stay technical too much and too emotionally seduce the electors by some kind of story telling, they could take the left too. Orange as a major color would be surprising and would mean that Bayrou participates to primaries and win it, which would seem very unlikely, especially to win it, and if he doesn't participate to it, he's done alone now, so he seems to be done anyways now, so Orange would be surprising. For me, by the day of today, the most likely to win such primaries would be Cohn Bendit (he said he wouldn't go, and maybe he won't but well, it remains time and events to come, you never know, he is in a positive dynamic today) or Royal (she got everything about today's politics, she just has to appear has a bit more decent than stuffs she did since she lost presidentials, she would have time to do that, people forget quickly, especially when they are conquered by emotions), or ultimately Duflot, she improved herself very much since she has been at the head of Greens, but well, she would have to improve still more, and quickly to hope something in some primaries. Hmm, Royal could very much manage to take the Green color for herself, and to put in some story telling, so that the left would become "royalist", as a new denomination referring to a new mix of "ideas" (postures).

I'd be very surprised they continue to screw themselves in these primaries, or only if either Greens, or MoDem, or NPA very quickly put the hand by their own on most of the left side of  this country, which would surprise me.

All of this is still to me suspended to what could happen in case of either a new economical mess, or an anger gaining the country (actually, anger is growing, I don't know how it will express itself ultimately, but an resentment is growing in average people), or some major geopolitic troubles, Iran/Israel with us in Abu Dhabi still in top of the list for this to me.

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Well, yeah. Left-right is more of an attitude and old thing than an actual clash of ideologies. In some countries, they're about the same though not in France yet. 

[/quote]

Yes, as Eric Zemmour said this country surely remains the most political one on earth, in terms of ideologies, I would found it valid, and that's also why I think we are almost alone to have a so strong far-left in West, which is the better representative of what can be an ideology, but it is very quickly ended, to me, very quickly... 2007 is a wonderful example of this.

"devout Catholic Bayrou"...
Sorry to disagree, Hash
He says so, but many of his social and value behaviours and ideas are really contrarian to Catholicism.
In fact, it's worse from him than from Mélenchon or Morano...
Bayrou is able to betray DEEPLY what he tries to make the Catholics believe.

Another minus on a long list...

Really, among the 4 "mad-list" (Royal, Villepin, Bayrou, Sarko), my final is definitely Bayrou-Villepin. Royal is really better than them.
At least, her ambition is straight and her stupidness is a smiling one...

I think you should listen to the interviews I spoke about too, not to the soup that most of the journalists offer us, and into which politicians, unluckily enjoy rolling themselves in it...

Concerning Royal, euh, people actually believe in her, ion her strong populism, Royal is some very bad populism, she exploit the most she can the worst threads, remember her behavior in Antilles during crisis there?? "souvenons-nous de la révolution française", ouais, souvenons-nous ma jolie, ça évitera balancer des bêtises et ça invitera à avoir de spropos un peu plus responsables (sorry, it's me who said we shouldn't speak French here...) actually, to me, she's the worst here...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

"devout Catholic Bayrou"...
Sorry to disagree, Hash
He says so, but many of his social and value behaviours and ideas are really contrarian to Catholicism.
In fact, it's worse from him than from Mélenchon or Morano...
Bayrou is able to betray DEEPLY what he tries to make the Catholics believe.

I wasn't referring to his ideological standings today, obviously. The guy goes to church every Sunday, he ain't an atheist in practice.

You're right: sociologically, he's a devout Catholic.
But he's what we call "une grenouille de bénitier"...

Bayrou can be criticized on a lot of realms, and I've done it, speedy and unfair judgments, which is how I see it, are useless...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

"devout Catholic Bayrou"...
Sorry to disagree, Hash
He says so, but many of his social and value behaviours and ideas are really contrarian to Catholicism.
In fact, it's worse from him than from Mélenchon or Morano...
Bayrou is able to betray DEEPLY what he tries to make the Catholics believe.

I wasn't referring to his ideological standings today, obviously. The guy goes to church every Sunday, he ain't an atheist in practice.

You're right: sociologically, he's a devout Catholic.
But he's what we call "une grenouille de bénitier"...

Bayrou can be criticized on a lot of realms, and I've done it, speedy and unfair judgments, which is how I see it, are useless...

I don't want to spend time and, what is more, to bother forumers with religious matters (as it's not very trendy here ), by studying each one of his positions, but I can assure you that Bayrou does not AT ALL abide by Catholic principles in his public life....
Politically and "sociologically", it may be unfair, if you want.
But theologically, it's not unfair.

And don't think I'm trying to make an ad for Boutin or Villiers, as the latter isn't coherent with Catholicism either (in another way, of course...) and as Boutin isn't any longer a significant force in French politics (she's over, all the more that she won't be deputy again).

And if Bayrou says he's laïc, so he must NOT refer to his so-called Catholicism AT ALL.
(and, granted, Royal should stop to take Jesus' sentences...)

Well, you could certainly debate far better than me about the Catholics' theology and where is Bayrou in that. But to put a "Grenouille de Bénitier" sticker on Bayrou which has an actual  reflexion about his Catholic filiation and which knows how to put in perspective with his political engagement, which has only been displayed in rare interviews, I found it a bit easy. Concerning its political behavior, I don't really see how there is something wrong with his religious filiation, he never refers to this filiation in the political debate, never, so this reproach can't be done to him, each time he does it, it is to speak about him, about his path, period. I'm not here to make his barking dog, but when I find he is unfairly attacked, while he has actual personal qualities, I feel the need to respond.

After that, yes, he has an irritating behavior, and irritating attitude, I agree with that, and i think I always acknowledged it. But please don't join the Sarko gang who display a kind of almost hate toward Villepin and Bayrou just because both them can have some irritating attitudes, and because they are not very clear on their positions. Nobody is clear today, it's just these both are not in the usual chairs... And these both seem to me to be far more interesting than Sarkozy and Royal, the 2 biggest populists of our country, the 2 king of postures here. Let's listen to Royal, and let's see what have been the great personal ideas of Sarkozy (should I mention the biggest examples again?).

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Well, don't know if it has to see with it, but, wanted to check the website, I went on, and it's still loading for a few minutes now...

Oh, loaded, what I can say it is that the website is not like on 20minutes' picture.

Anyways, reserve your Saturday guys! Tomorrow it's "Fête de la Fraternité"!

(...the f**k that such a word..."Fraternité" (brotherhood)...is so badly used...)

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Oh, loaded, what I can say it is that the website is not like on 20minutes' picture.

Obviously. They changed it. They're not that dumb.

Well, not sure they once had a website like on 20minutes' picture, the website I'm on now is just the exact same on i went on some time ago.

Do you have the link to the article of 20 minutes about that?

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Oh ok, everything is explainable now.

They just made a new homepage for the site at "deisrsdavenir.com", the former address hasn't it. And well, now maybe you could get why it was as cheap as taking some vista wallpapers, read the top:

http://www.desirsdavenir.com/

After all, that's normal, a woman who gives her own being to her people, could just give her site to them...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Oh, loaded, what I can say it is that the website is not like on 20minutes' picture.

Obviously. They changed it. They're not that dumb.

Well, not sure they once had a website like on 20minutes' picture, the website I'm on now is just the exact same on i went on some time ago.

Do you have the link to the article of 20 minutes about that?

Denial?

The website with that background was shown briefly on the France2 JT a few days ago. Just search any old news outlet. I'm not making this up.

They changed it to a nicer version once they had seen the massive criticism and jokes it had made.

There is even a 'desirs d'avenir' generator online now.

Oh, I haven't followed that story, I can just see, and you could through the last link I gave that, that on the top of the page of the site it is written that the wallpaper would regularly change and this according to a "participative" method. To me it could have explained the fact that there were a simple vista wallpaper before, cheaply done by some fans. Though, maybe this rule came after, dunno, anyways may they enjoy themselves to do whatever they want with their site..;

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I had the bad luck of falling of Ségogo's speech at the Fête de la Fraternité. She took her drugs this morning, that's for sure.

Words cannot express this lady's utter stupidity and cluelessness.

It's live on BFM TV, which can be seen on http://www.election-politique.com/

Thanks, had forgotten that stuff...

Will watch. (If I can stay till the end)

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Seems I've missed the most part.

Well, haven't missed a lot of things I think. Damn, that was sober, compared to last time. So it hasn't been that big stuff competing with the Fête de l'humanité that they envisaged to do last year just after the 1st one and just before: "We just heard about the fact that the big bank Lehman Borthers in the US has bankrupted". Other than that, well, the few I heard wasn't really different as usual, she doesn't make politics, she wants to spread feelings, oh yes, that's the way we make politics today.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Compared to last time, yeah, definitely sober. Probably softer drugs.

She's also more isolated though, nobody of Valls-Peillon-Filipetti attended today, unlike at the Zénith last year. Her new shtick also seems to be against the "Parisian etat-majors" which want to make her shut up.

Eva Peron Ségolène Royal needs nobody, she just needs the people and there is no problem for her since she is the people.

3 candidates for primaries:

Bertand Delanoë (representing Martine and friends, all the Jospin generation)
Manuel Valls (for the youngs, most of those those who were behind Royal, Assouline, Filipetti, well the kitties gang)
Ségolène Royal (for...the people)

Hmm, I think they would succeed in creating that big primaries from Greens/(maybe Front de Gauche) to maybe MoDem, but at least I think they would do a big thing, that would overcome the PS, once for all. Ségolène Royal has all her chances in that, more than ever. [/all of this still suspend to big contextual events]

But, even in case of big events, that would make people psychologically more febrile, I think it would play for Seeg. Either she finishes sectarian, either she takes the country. And if ever she one day takes this country, we will all feel our pain guys, actually, Sarko could have been a cool time in comparison.

[/all of this also suspended to regional results, and especially Green's ones, though something seems to be sure, none of the recognized name in Greens has a chance to do something in the primaries]

I'd be glad to see a fresh strong interesting person that I don't know appearing now or a bit of time before primaries, today, things can go very fast when you're unknown.

Oh, and, our left is more than ever empty and ridiculous, but our right is more than ever a band of bad clowns (Hortefeux, Besson, Villiers, Estrosi, Mitterand, for the main ones) with a poor clown leading them, luckily he has for him his dose of pragmatism, why all these clowns are in politics, they would be surely better elsewhere, but here, please, let's be serious now...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

BTW, forgot to mention this :

Villepin is now officially guilty.

Oh, what happened?

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

BTW, forgot to mention this :

Villepin is now officially guilty.

Oh, what happened?

Didn't you hear Sarko ? It was some days ago.

Ah this, yes, well, good move of Villepin's lawyers, and Sarkozy should be aware that now he has serious responsibilities before he talks. Yup, that's hard, politics today being less and less considered as something serious...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Yup Antonio, but personally I consider a bad circle is already being engaged, that politics won't stop leaning toward populism for times to come now.

I think there are things more important than politics to care about today, and which doesn't belong to politics, which is in short "to get back some sens in this world, some sens and some principles", to me this is not the job of the politics, that's the job of an other realm of the society, you know, spirituality and thus religion. Though, maybe you're leaning to be a total leftist, thinking politics is here to give principles to people, what believed the former far-leftist regimes. And I'm not saying that spirituality, thus religion, should make politics, I'm just saying it's its job to care about sens and principles in a human society. Well that's anyways a big debate which doesn't belong at all to this thread. It was just to show why I don't care that much of the current bad trends of politics.

So, well, personally, I give my thoughts to where I think the real changes have to come from and let the politicians making some fools of themselves, congratulating them when I find something interesting, blaming them when i find something blamable.

The French model doesn't help to see things like that, but I think our modernity should push us to. Politics is a technical thing before everything.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

The point is not so abstract : it's on everyone's freedom. Letting politicians behaves so represent a real danger not a moral one. I never cared about morality.

The point precisely being that today I think the biggest match takes place on the ground of morality and sens. . We shouldn't put that much into politics, once again it is a rather technical thing. Though, as I said, it's not a reason to let it go, I blame and congratulate what I feel i have to, but I think today the biggest match is elsewhere...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

The point is not so abstract : it's on everyone's freedom. Letting politicians behaves so represent a real danger not a moral one. I never cared about morality.

The point precisely being that today I think the biggest match takes place on the ground of morality and sens. . We shouldn't put that much into politics, once again it is a rather technical thing. Though, as I said, it's not a reason to let it go, I blame and congratulate what I feel i have to, but I think today the biggest match is elsewhere...

State of Right is the most important thing we have. Nothing comes before. Again, I know many people love to make it a moral issue, but it isn't. It's like saying that forbidding murder is a moral issue because First Commandment says we shouldn't.

Héhé, your example just makes my point Antonio, why is that forbidden to murder?

Where do the principles of the "State of right" come from?

(oh f***, we're going in such a debate here, not sure that's the place for so, but, well...)

Anyways, outside of this, I wasn't even arguing in that garden with what I said before, I was just saying that, from a pragmatic point of view, the biggest fights to lead today are not to be led on the political ground first. Some have to be led on the political ground, but the more important ones today are beyond to me.

In short I think political doctrines can't fill the lacks of our epoch...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

The point is not so abstract : it's on everyone's freedom. Letting politicians behaves so represent a real danger not a moral one. I never cared about morality.

The point precisely being that today I think the biggest match takes place on the ground of morality and sens. . We shouldn't put that much into politics, once again it is a rather technical thing. Though, as I said, it's not a reason to let it go, I blame and congratulate what I feel i have to, but I think today the biggest match is elsewhere...

State of Right is the most important thing we have. Nothing comes before. Again, I know many people love to make it a moral issue, but it isn't. It's like saying that forbidding murder is a moral issue because First Commandment says we shouldn't.

Héhé, your example just makes my point Antonio, why is that forbidden to murder?

Where do the principles of the "State of right" come from?

(oh f***, we're going in such a debate here, not sure that's the place for so, but, well...)

Very interesting debate : is it because religion said "Don't kill" that killing was forbidden, or is it because it was forbidden that religion said he was ?
Religion often traduces the current menatlity of the people, a mentality that correspond to dumb prejudices in a great part (homosexuality is evil !) but also to common sense (we can't let people kill each other).

No matter where does this come from, it is not some political debates, actually.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

What's going on? I don't regularly access the French news.

Clearstream trial with Villepin. Sarkozy said some stupid things insinuating he's guilty before the judgment even fell. It's the big thing on Les Guignols these days (they're the only sane and competent news source in France).

The Guignols became more decent these very last times, would it be just the last year, I thought they were far too stupid and what they did was really too easy, I liked just about 50% of what they did. Though, since the beginning of this season, I find them pretty decent, I've been surprised, i'd buy 80% of what they do.

But still, considering they are a source of news, and moreover the best one, is stupid, just saying it because some seriously pretend that, which is a very good thing to feed the populism. They are good caricaturists, period.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

(they're the only sane and competent news source in France).

Couldn't agree more.

Héhé, yup, my pessimist thoughts are justified, look at this youth we have...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

(they're the only sane and competent news source in France).

Couldn't agree more.

Héhé, yup, my pessimist thoughts are justified, look at this youth we have...

Their caricatures are not superficial, they manage to get the essential of every politician.
For example, I really like Jospin but I find his "Guignol" is a perfect caricature of him.

I'd pretty agree since the beginning of this season, but for the last years, 50% of what they did was damn bad in my opinion. Since the beginning of this season they have stopped to do very easy things and all that stuffs about physic of people, that was damn boring and stupid.

But, once again, they can make very good caricatures, which are necessary to be done, but going on "Guignols say the truth" (for those who would more or less seriously go through it) is a pretty bad thing, encouraging populist tendencies, in short that's pretty demagogic, and especially when we see the seasons preceding this one. But even this season, it remains just some caricatures, and some are still excessive, that brings some good necessary breathes, but it hasn't to be too much seriously taken.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Jean Sarkozy nominated to lead the Défense, biggest CBD of Europe, the guy is 22 and hasn't the slightest experience in that...

Owww dear...

...and I think we haven't finished to hear about this lil prince, unluckily...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

So many "ouverture" ministers in the palmares...

Yes, and that's why they have been chosen...

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Just heard on Canal+ that Jean Sarkozy will renounce to the Défense.

Héhé, I expect him playing the great lord "I've been illegitimately attacked but ok, ok, I let you this post... Are you happy of yourself now?".

And so that, he won't have to be criticized for what he would have done there...

Waiting for his actual reaction though. And anyways, no matter the reason for which he renounced, that's a positive news.