SENATE BILL: Ukrainian Technical, Economical and Military Aid (Debating)

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

If there are responsible NGOs then I can approve supporting them, but Ukraine's government has had a systemic corruption problem, which we aren't going to fix by giving them money. Tatar-language schools and anti-discrimination laws don't really address this problem.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I don't think any single body is trustworthy enough to be handed $9 billion.  (and yes that includes the Atlasian Senate )

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Superique has the right idea as far as what we want to be legislating. 

However, $9 billion is a lot of money.  What are we trying to do that is so expensive?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Superique has the right idea as far as what we want to be legislating. 

However, $9 billion is a lot of money.  What are we trying to do that is so expensive?

Indeed, the reason why I chose such a large sum was that the Ukrainian economy almost suffered a crippling blow with all of this. The loss of Crimea and Sebastopol is already a heavy loss, and we have to remember that as long as Donetsk suffers the attack of Russian-backer insurgents and terrorists then that region can't be productive (and it is the single most productive one). Even more, the energy war Russia declared forced Ukraine to spend increasingly large amounts of money to keep the oil flowing. I chose $9 billions by comparing to what other countries have sent, as a Japan sent $10 billion or so and the European Union has sent two or three times that sum.

Since this is directed as a long term effort to protect and help Ukraine, I figured a large amount made more sense than $1 or $2 billions, which would be more symbolic than effective given the expenses.

Okay, but what does the bulk of this money go toward?  Energy development?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Wait, why are we intent on making NGOs handle this?

The Senate and Atlasian government may not be perfect, but I'd rather we handle our own money.

The question was whether we are going to give it to NGOs or to the Ukrainian government.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Really we should say they are appropriated to the NGOs. They should be handled by the Dept of External Affairs.  Plus we should cut out all direct funds to the Government of Ukraine.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'd be fine with banning the Right Sector and all that jazz, but I don't want to cut the military aid or reduce the overall package. Perhaps I shall introduce an amendment to that effect in the future...

I have pretty much the reverse problem with this.

Nay.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

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[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

And I will declare it hostile. I insist that we need the military aid, and I don't see the point of cutting the economical aid in half. Furthermore, why getting rid of Sections 2.1.2 and Section 5?

The aid will be given to Atlasian and NGO development agencies, not to the Ukrainian government, which has a history of corruption issues.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

AYE

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Let's just makes sure we don't get confused about what amendment we are voting on here.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

NAY


Why is section 5 being cut? Were it not for that I would lean towards supporting the amendment, though I would also prefer to keep section 3 as well considering the circumstances they are in.

Section 5 is all about the conditions on which the money is being given to the Ukrainian government. Since this amendment directs that the goals of this bill instead be accomplished through funding to entities other than the Ukrainian government, it is not relevant.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

NAY


Why is section 5 being cut? Were it not for that I would lean towards supporting the amendment, though I would also prefer to keep section 3 as well considering the circumstances they are in.

Section 5 is all about the conditions on which the money is being given to the Ukrainian government. Since this amendment directs that the goals of this bill instead be accomplished through funding to entities other than the Ukrainian government, it is not relevant.

Sure, but in that case wouldn't section just be amended to reflect that change instead of removed?

You mean limit what money we give to third parties based on what the Ukrainian government does or doesn't do? 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

NAY

I don't support the deletion of Section 1.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

How one would go about diversifying another country's economy is a very good question.  Are there other examples one can point to where this has been successful?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Aye  though I would be interesting in seeing if we can do a reformulated  2.2.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

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[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

1 Billion, or 5 Billion, isn't chump change.  I'm definitely willing to spend something on this bill, but I do have concerns about whether it is a wise amount of spending on this. If it is less, I have a feeling it will be invested more wisely. I am concerned about Ukraine, but there are a lot of other areas in the world that could use our help too, and so spending too much here is an opportunity cost both at home and abroad.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I made a change to my amendment, in the title, since military aid is no longer a part of this bill.

1 Billion, or 5 Billion, isn't chump change.  I'm definitely willing to spend something on this bill, but I do have concerns about whether it is a wise amount of spending on this. If it is less, I have a feeling it will be invested more wisely. I am concerned about Ukraine, but there are a lot of other areas in the world that could use our help too, and so spending too much here is an opportunity cost both at home and abroad.

It is wise to question that amount of money - especially with the push to get involved in Iraq again as well. We risk throwing away an awful lot of money. Perhaps a lesser amount would be more palatable? Like, a lot less?

I would be open to that.  At the same time we do want it to be enough so that it is actually helpful, and I might support this bill even with the current amount.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

So, what is the status of my amendment?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Nay