The Imperial Dominion of the South's Legislature

[Associate Justice PiT]

     It's worded rather vaguely, but it seems to me that's it intended to be some sort of "castle law".

[Associate Justice PiT]

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Does this include abortion?

     The regional Constitution implies (though does not explicitly state) that life begins at birth. I don't know of any regional statute on abortion, but that's something I could look up.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     It's worded rather vaguely, but it seems to me that's it intended to be some sort of "castle law".

What's a castle law?

     If somebody trespasses on your property, you have the right to use lethal force to defend it.

[Associate Justice PiT]

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Does this include abortion?

     The regional Constitution implies (though does not explicitly state) that life begins at birth. I don't know of any regional statute on abortion, but that's something I could look up.

Well if there is nothing in our constitution specificly stating Life begins at birth then this could be interpeted as covering the rights of the unborn, yes?

     The Wiki is a mess, but from what I can tell abortion is fully legal up until 90 days, after which it is only legal in cases where needed for the mother's health, except in Louisiana & South Carolina where it is illegal for all reasons except for the life of the mother

[Associate Justice PiT]

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Does this include abortion?

     The regional Constitution implies (though does not explicitly state) that life begins at birth. I don't know of any regional statute on abortion, but that's something I could look up.

Well if there is nothing in our constitution specificly stating Life begins at birth then this could be interpeted as covering the rights of the unborn, yes?

     The Wiki is a mess, but from what I can tell abortion is fully legal up until 90 days, after which it is only legal in cases where needed for the mother's health, except in Louisiana & South Carolina where it is illegal for all reasons except for the life of the mother

Perhaps the the Clerk could have the duty of keeping the wiki up to date and orderly added to his/her job.

     I seem to recall us having passed an initiative to establish a commission to keep the Wiki current.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Sorry I wasn't online, I had a lot of homework. Anyway, PiT seems to have interpret this law correctly.

     In that case, I think we ought to narrow it down to property more, maybe looking at the text of real-life castle laws to phrase it precisely. I can give it a shot, or if you wish to you can take care of it.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Alright, I re-wrote it to make its intention clear. It's not as tough as it could be, but I'd like comments from my colleagues, & I would also like to introduce it as an amendment to replace the current text of the bill:

1. It shall be the right of any property owner to defend his/her property from any person (hereafter referred to as an intruder) who s/he reasonably believes has come onto his/her property with the intent to bring harm and/or cause damage against the property, the property owner, or any guest of the property owner, and who the property owner believes constitutes a direct threat in the intruder's current state.

2. Should a property owner maim or kill an intruder in compliance with this act, that person shall be immune to any and all civil actions arising from the actions of the property owner in response to the actions of the intruder.

3. A property owner acting in compliance with this act shall not be legally bound by any duty to retreat, and may use an amount of force against the intruder that the property owner reasonably believes is necessary to stop the attack, after having given a visual, verbal, or other auditory warning.

[Associate Justice PiT]

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     I tried to do that by saying "may use an amount of force against the intruder that the property owner reasonably believes is necessary to stop the attack" in clause 3, as well as "and who the property owner believes constitutes a direct threat in the intruder's current state" in clause 1. Clause 3 in general requires the property owner to warn the intruder before using force & expressly prohibits the use of excessive force, while my intention with the last part of clause 1 was to prohibit the property owner from shooting a fleeing or subdued intruder.

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     I used property since I wanted it to cover places of business as well, though there might be a slight issue there since if you are talking about a supermarket, it's far more likely that there would be some random employees stocking after hours rather than the actual owner of the building, so they wouldn't be covered by this act.

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     In most cases, I'm not sure whether the property owner would be able to ascertain whether an intruder is intending to threaten property or person. I think either way, they would need to be allowed to use the amount of force necessary to stop the person from committing the crime, a standard that could be better interpreted by the courts.

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     Good point, I will change that.

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     I understand your concern, though I think it might kill the effectiveness of the law if we put too much of a burden on the property owner to affirm the correctness of his actions. One might be hesitant to act, even if he's completely justified in doing so, if he fears that there is a very good chance that he'll get caught up in a lengthy & complicated case.

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     Good point. I will change "commit criminal acts" in clause 1 to "bring harm or cause damage", since your house being egged is annoying & criminal, but doesn't really cause any damage.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I've edited the post with the amendment. If there are no objections, I'd like to get a final vote opened soon.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Aye on the bill & the amendment.

[Associate Justice PiT]

The bill is defeated 1-0-2

     I was going to comment on the fact that abstentions don't really count as votes, but then I realized that the 33% turnout meant that we didn't have a quorum to pass it.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Hopefully the legislature will be more active this coming term. Failing to attain a quorum on a final vote was rather embarrassing.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I, PiT, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the Southeast against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me Dave.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Aye

[Associate Justice PiT]

     While I don't think the bill in its current form could pass, I do think we should consider reforming the punishments.
   
     As Badger pointed out to me, there is no requirement of knowledge in the inducement of the abortion for the sentence of prison time. Therefore, under current law, a person who accidentally knocks over a woman in the second or third trimester of pregnancy, causing her to lose the fetus as a result, will go to prison for three years barring jury nullification.

     I would also like to point out that the fine of $500,000 on any person who knowingly induces an illegal abortion is astronomically large, & in my opinion should be greatly reduced.

     Finally, the current law calls for exactly three years of prison & exactly a fine of $500,000. A person convicted of inducing an illegal abortion cannot be sentenced to anything less than the maximum sentence.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I offer an amendment to eliminate all clauses except clause 3.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     SPC has not been online in almost nine days now. The Legislature will never get anything done if its members are not at least reasonably active.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Given that he has already been absent for four days or so once without leave, I don't think we'd be overly harsh to schedule a special election to replace him.

[Associate Justice PiT]

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Special elections are out for now because now law has been passed regarding them. If SPC doesn't come back by a certain time I'll consider the seat vacated and appoint someone new. how much time should we give him?

I know my opinion technically no longer counts here, but maybe give him until the weekend?

I'd also like to apologize for not being present at the last vote- things were a little hectic a few days ago, and I couldn't really find any time. I didn't check the legislature page until the day after the vote. In addition, for some reason I couldn't log on at all the last 4 or 5 days.

I'd be willing to serve again, and hopefully perform better, should SPC not return in a timely manner. I'd say that my overall participation in Atlasia and in the Southeast would merit my consideration, should such a need arise.

     I agree with this post. Deldem served well in his brief tenure in the Legislature, & the legislature is in desperate need of active members.

[Associate Justice PiT]

We should wait until we see whether or not SPC needs to be replaced to bring up any new bill's because failing due to not having a quorum looks bad.

     Speaking of that, I will re-introduce the bill that failed earlier due to the lack of a quorum.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I was actually looking forward to debating that bill, since I'm curious to find out what the reasons behind it are. I suppose now that that's out there, though, that isn't really needed.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Well here is the burning question: why?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I'm not quite sure why that's such a big deal, unless we are talking about western Texans freeloading off of the tax revenues exacted from eastern Texans. Texas is not the only state to house vastly disparate geographical entities, at any rate.

[Associate Justice PiT]

The election shall occur

     Didn't Governor Jbrase already appoint SPC's replacement?

[Associate Justice PiT]

Doesn't the Southeast have a recall? Recall this tb75 dude...

     In an underpopulated region dominated by the Atlasians of yesteryear, it's nice to have a newbie who is enthusiastic about holding office. Not to mention he messed up on a minor point of a pretty new law. It's not like he was talking about diplomatic relations with Franco or war with Canada.