America is falling apart (user search)
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  America is falling apart (search mode)
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Author Topic: America is falling apart  (Read 1303 times)
Red Velvet
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Posts: 3,166
Brazil


« on: April 14, 2024, 07:33:24 AM »

America AS YOU KNOW IT is falling apart, you mean. I seriously cringe whenever people react to societal transformations as some kind of apocalypse; death or something.

These transformations aren’t specific to USA, are happening in multiple places and they are normal. Things always change, they have been since the beginning of mankind and everyone wouldn’t be here today if these transformations didn’t happen.

Sometimes these transformations are good and sometimes they’re bad, which are still valuable in showing a better path for society by forcing humans to create new and more sophisticated instruments to counter whatever stimulates or guarantees the negative developments. You only really know how to fight problems when you have to deal with them in your flesh and making mistakes are a normal part of growing up.
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Red Velvet
Sr. Member
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Posts: 3,166
Brazil


« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2024, 10:05:29 AM »

If America is falling apart it is because having a culture and society is fundamentally at odds with capitalism, in which people are nothing more than resources, cogs in the capitalist machine. Instead of a real culture, we have cultural products which are sold for money. Our culture, essentially, is money. And this creates tremendous alienation, naturally, between people and any idea of a 'nation'. This tension has always been around, but it is becoming more intense as capitalism pervades American life more and more thoroughly.

Hence, people easily buy into bread and circuses such as "culture wars" and partisan politics that serve to keep the masses divided over issues that have the illusion of deep meaning but are actually relatively low stakes and non-threatening to the status quo. External adversaries like China are needed to give people a sense of meaning and struggle that would otherwise be missing. In the meantime, the capitalism system continues on and the rich and powerful become more rich and powerful, while everyone else fights over the scraps.

Agree that USA’s “social cohesion” is the aspiration of better opportunities and quality of life (all related to money as you say) instead of one unified culture that binds people together. Which eventually is way more of an individual aspiration and inspiration than a collective one.

I don’t think US lacks culture though, it’s more that it’s widely segregated between different bubbles and that creates different and separated “Americas” depending on which cultural bubble you’re inserted in.

Very different from Brazil/LatAm logic where we get all these different influences too characteristic of immigrant countries but we smash and crack them all, then mix it all together in the same soup to form something inherently Brazilian and one single national culture idea that all can identify with regardless of their background.

That’s why for instance, all Brazilians can have fun with the Portuguese when complaining about colonization and gold robbery even if they’re descendants of these same colonizers, as they will still feel more inherently culturally connected to Brazil and the “mixed multicultural idea” it represents and that they were inserted in from the moment they were born.

Carnaval and Samba for instance, has influences of all of Portuguese, Indigenous and African cultures while still not being really any of those.

“Macunaíma”, a classic from Brazilian literature we have to read during school classes that later became a movie, is about trying to characterize an unified Brazilian identity through its protagonist who is an Indigenous man that is born Black and becomes White, everything all together at same time. Something that under US cultural lenses, I imagine it would sound very offensive. External cultural influences are massively brought in, consumed and reinterpreted through national lenses to create its own “Brazilian version”.

When watching US cultural products, it’s much harder for me to get what is the sense of what’s really being an American to you guys. Because it’s like it’s something very different from each person, the one common trope usually repeated is the “freedom” discourse that is related to both economics (neoliberal capitalism = you can get whatever you want) and social behavior (social liberalism = you can do and be whatever you want) but that seems way more directed to individual goals as I said than something that makes you feel connected to your neighbor under the same cultural umbrella.

But all this is more related to US foundation and history of segregation (as it was colonized by the British, inheriting their perspective) more than necessarily tied with Capitalism and its complications tbh, which is something present everywhere. I believe the excessive focus on Capitalism as a mantra for national pride may have been simply a way to fabricate a narrative to try to glue in people who are looking for the same goals and need each other for it, compensating the lack of that unified cultural glue while also stimulating a national narrative that is based on the idea of production and individual prospering.
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Red Velvet
Sr. Member
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Posts: 3,166
Brazil


« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2024, 01:24:16 PM »


America has never had the sorta class politics you guys want outside the new deal era and that the exception not the rule . The reason that was formed was because we faced a far far worse economic situation than anything we do today .

So you’re saying that left-wing politics are better when the situation is bad and right-wing politics are better when the situation is good.

Which means, poorer countries are correct to pursue Left-Wing economics to fix or minimize problems. And also that US itself had to base itself on Left-Wing economics in order to build the economic foundation of today and it will inevitably return to a more leftist consensus scenario in the future after years of unchanged neoliberalism result in stagnation and economic insecurity.
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Red Velvet
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,166
Brazil


« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2024, 10:15:42 AM »
« Edited: April 20, 2024, 10:19:35 AM by Red Velvet »

America has never had the sorta class politics you guys want outside the new deal era and that the exception not the rule . The reason that was formed was because we faced a far far worse economic situation than anything we do today .

So you’re saying that left-wing politics are better when the situation is bad and right-wing politics are better when the situation is good.

Which means, poorer countries are correct to pursue Left-Wing economics to fix or minimize problems. And also that US itself had to base itself on Left-Wing economics in order to build the economic foundation of today and it will inevitably return to a more leftist consensus scenario in the future after years of unchanged neoliberalism result in stagnation and economic insecurity.

At the foundation of American economic stability is its democracy. Few countries (especially those that are poor today), have a quarter millennia history of democratic norms. Without those norms constraining the behavior of politicians, and a large number of people who feel as though they have nothing to lose, left wing movements in poorer countries become a draw for demagogues who promise a big welfare state but who have no long term plan for economic development and are only concerned with staying in power. I would think that as a South American, you’d be familiar with this pattern.

Demagogues exist in both Right and Left movements, because what you bring up isn’t about ideological beliefs themselves, but instrumentalizing them for political gain whatever they are. And it naturally exists everywhere regardless of logic.

What exactly do you think Trump scapegoating literally everyone for the country problems is? With the number of immigrants literally going up during his term hahaha

From my background since that apparently matters to you, Centrism is the ideological side most associated to political opportunism because “Big Center” in congress here stands for literally nothing other then their own power, playing both sides according to what will politically benefit them more.

The Right is more passionate but their chosen representatives are nothing but more radical extensions of the Big Center, with no real long-term plan and still more concerned about their power, playing lip-service to their base. The Left in general is way more ideological AND pragmatic, with a good chunk that has a long-term project but still that doesn’t mean every individual can be generalized like that, with exceptions in all camps.
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