Greek spending has actually been rising

[Landslide Lyndon]

Sorry but I didn't see this topic earlier.

1)The spending rising is a combination of a deeper recession that forces increased safety net spending and the unwillingness of certain parts of the administration to tighten their belts.
It's disappointing and frustrating but somewhat expected. Going cold turkey after decades of profligacy was never going to be easy, especially when large parts of the society and the political world refuse to accept reality and demagogue like it's the 90's (even the conservative parties).
Also the fact that our constitution says that civil servants are permanent employees that can't be fired makes our choices even more limited when it comes to scaling down our public sector.

2)Ousting Greece out of the Eurozone will only make matters worse as it will show to other EU countries that the concept of European Solidarity is just empty words and that if they fall in difficult times, the great powers will have no qualms to do the same to them. Needless to say that will mean the end of EU as a legitimate organization that can influence world policy (even though I understand that many people here don't see anything wrong with that).

3)Cutting military expenditures is an excellent solution. There is only one problem with that: Germany and France vehemently oppose such a measure. The reason? We are one of the best clients of their military/industrial complexes.
When our prime minister visited Merkel and Sarkozy, it was really hilarious seeing them advising a strict austerity plan and at the same time lobbying for even more german and french weapon purchases by our army.

4)If the Eurobond means Germany paying more, then so be it. You can't pretend to be the boss and when time comes to fulfill your responsibilities to start whining about how hard is your job. Germany didn't have a problem when greek banks borrowed money which Greeks used to buy German goods or when the adoption of Euro led to skyrocketing exports and its commercial surplus. 
And the idea that Germany didn't want the Euro is about as credible as the conspiracy theories about Obama's birth certificate.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Our constitution was amended during the 2006-08 period and can be amended again only 10 years after its last modification(2016). Even so, I highly doubt that any government would dare to change that particular article.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Obviously. It's always good policy to punish success.

I guess Californians and New Yorkers could say the same seeing how their money go to welfare states like Alaska and Mississippi.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Obviously. It's always good policy to punish success.

I guess Californians and New Yorkers could say the same seeing how their money go to welfare states like Alaska and Mississippi.

Californians and New Yorkers can, at least in theory, outvote Alaska and Mississippi.

I think your approach, saying that "if Germany wants to be the boss they have to pay for us" is wrongheaded. It's more that "if Germany is to pay for Greece, they'll want to be the boss"

Right now, they're paying without control. But control over decisions has to be aligned with carrying the risks. Otherwise, you have a recipe for disaster.

California and New York outvoted Alaska and Mississippi back in 2000. The rest as they say is History.

And maybe you haven't noticed, but nothing gets done in EU until Germany approves. Germany's unwillingness to act, due to internal politics, is after all the reason why this crisis dragged on for months the first half of 2010, exacerbating the problem.
And it was Germany who insisted the IMF be a part of the rescue package and then put in place punitive conditions as to make an example out of us, despite vocal opposition by France and the IMF.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Obviously. It's always good policy to punish success.

I guess Californians and New Yorkers could say the same seeing how their money go to welfare states like Alaska and Mississippi.

To an extent. Yes, I agree. I don't think their money should go to MS and AK, at least the way it's done now.

But at least....despite everything....it is one country consisting of Americans. As much as I support decentralization, it's still true.

I like you, px...but Greece isn't my country and Greeks aren't entitled to (one of my) country's money I think we made a massive mistake getting so deep into this union so quickly. No offense, but if you're going to do somethink like the Euro, it needs to be done among countries that are somewhat comparable in economic power and wealth. I'm afraid Greece never really qualified...admitting countries like crazy was the feel-good pro-Europe position. It just had to be done!

Unlike some of my compatriots, I never asked for charity. I understand the harsh conditions (but not the punitive ones) and if I were in your shoes I'd probably feel the same.
But it wasn't feel-good sentiments that put Greece and Portugal into the Eurozone. It was Germany's calculation that thanks to the wage-restraint policy that followed it would dominate financially over these countries (and the massive trade surplus shows they were right).

And adoption of the Euro did not lead to skyrocketing exports in Germany.

While you are basically right about that, if the Euro would go down now, a reintroduced D-Mark (or what ever a German currency would be called) would be revalued and go through the roof and hurt our exports badly.

Which, in the long run, wouldn't even be such a bad thing imho, as Germans were forced to give up the policy of wage restraint we practiced in the last 20 years.

But it would still be very painful. So instead, we pay some money to avoid that. Look at it as a charge we pay, in exchange for the privilege of cheap exports.

If we bailout Greece every 10 years or so, it should still be a net surplus for Germany.
Not that this is a healthy way of interacting between the Euro nations, but well, the whole Euro wasn't a healthy idea in the first place.

Thank you, you put it better than I ever would.
And I'm sure that if Germany concludes that the costs of bailing out the PIGS are greater than the profits, it will have little problem abandoning the Euro and returning to the Mark. The whole notion that some people propagate about Germans being dragged into the Euro against their will, is laughable. 

[Landslide Lyndon]

Yeah, a wikipedia article talking about something that happened 13 years before the Euro was introduced (and never mentioning explicit official German opposition) is undeniable proof that you were right all along.

Happy now?

[Landslide Lyndon]

Thirteen years is VERY long time, even for a multi-year project like the Euro. A lot of things had changed between 1989 and 2000 when the final decision was taken.

The wikipedia article is vague about what kind of opposition existed in Germany: was it the government that opposed it, the parliament, the voters? And "being cautious" isn't the same as being opposed.
And of course according to the article even France (the driving force of the project according to you) approved the creation of Euro with only a narrow majority.

My position is reality based, unlike yours. Unless of course you think that Germany being the big beneficiary of the creation of the Eurozone is just a coincidence which nobody, not even Germans themselves could've predicted.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Oy.

You know, as in the DSK thread you take something someone writes, interpret it completely different and then launch a self-indulging tirade about how wrong is what the other person "says" and how right your opinion is. No wonder you are so sympathetic every time we mock people like Palin.

Just because something was negotiated and written it doesn't mean that its implementation is inevitable. Otherwise we'd have a European Constitution by now. Heck, just see what happens now with the July decisions about the bailout mechanism.
If Germans REALLY didn't want the Euro then they could have used that "overwhelming" public opposition and scuttled the entire project, Maastricht or no Maastricht.

And by saying that the Euro was "popular" here in the Mediterranean you are showing your ignorance. Here at least it was always viewed with suspicion, if not outright hostility, and the rising inflation that came with its adoption did nothing to enhance its popularity. Even during better times the populace always remembered fondly our old drachma.

The "painful" measures Germany took was a decision to increase wages by a lower % than the rest of the Eurozone countries. That was impossible to do here (and probably the other regional countries) because our wages were already lower and because of the inflation caused by the Euro. Obviously it was a sound policy decision but to the detriment of the other european economies and not exactly helpful in the supposed ongoing quest of erasing the inequalities between the EU countries.   

This is the last time I respond to you. You can now have all the fun you want by misinterpreting what I wrote and giving another lesson to your "ignorant" pupils.

[Landslide Lyndon]

So, as could be expected citizens in Finland and Germany tended to correctly predict that the euro would not be good for them. I won't expect you to admit to being wrong again though. I guess I twisted your words on this one. You clearly agreed with me that Germany was the country most opposed to the euro, right? (it should be noted that Eurobarometer polls notoriously overstate support for European policies so the absolute levels here are likely to be off).

Go see a therapist. Really.

[Landslide Lyndon]

So, as could be expected citizens in Finland and Germany tended to correctly predict that the euro would not be good for them. I won't expect you to admit to being wrong again though. I guess I twisted your words on this one. You clearly agreed with me that Germany was the country most opposed to the euro, right? (it should be noted that Eurobarometer polls notoriously overstate support for European policies so the absolute levels here are likely to be off).

Go see a therapist. Really.

I need to go see a therapist because I proved you wrong? It's surprisingly common for useless posters on here to resort to some random personal insult as a last resort after having been conclusively defeated in terms of arguments.

But any time you're ready to explain how I showed that I'm clueless by stating something that was factually correct, go ahead. I find it psychologically interesting how people like you try to justify themselves in public (beyond telling me to go see a therapist. Which is rather weak. I've been called lots worse by people losing arguments to me).

[Landslide Lyndon]

Beet trying to debate Gustaf in this thread reminds me of the heroic, but ultimately futile, task undertaken by Ernest a few days ago when he tried to debate CARLHAYDEN.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I ate a roasted lamb gyro for dinner.  Fear not Greece, $8.50 is coming your way.

They duped you. Real gyro is made of pork or veal.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Beet trying to debate Gustaf in this thread reminds me of the heroic, but ultimately futile, task undertaken by Ernest a few days ago when he tried to debate CARLHAYDEN.

I'm sorry, this is an adult conversation involving people who know something. I think you entered the wrong thread.

Seriously, you can't be disproven, run away like a little baby and then come back with some cheap insult. My posts proving you just made up stuff you had no idea about are still there. If you have proper responses to them, go ahead. Otherwise, it's really more appropriate for you to shut up.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Also, very Woody Allenesque move there.

That's the biggest compliment I've ever received. Thanks dude!