On Censorship

[Antonio the Sixth]

Despite everything that had been said, the brilliant people who animated Charlie Hebdo knew all well  the legitimate limits of freedom of expression. Their drawings were often crude and provocative, but never hateful. Despite their old slogan, they were anything but "dumb and mean". They were animated by values of universal solidarity and peaceful coexistence. Yes, they were militant anticlericals, but frankly I don't think that's the main point. They opposed organized religions because they saw them as forces of hatred and oppression. That's their legacy IMO.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Despite everything that had been said, the brilliant people who animated Charlie Hebdo knew all well  the legitimate limits of freedom of expression. Their drawings were often crude and provocative, but never hateful. Despite their old slogan, they were anything but "dumb and mean". They were animated by values of universal solidarity and peaceful coexistence. Yes, they were militant anticlericals, but frankly I don't think that's the main point. They opposed organized religions because they saw them as forces of hatred and oppression. That's their legacy IMO.

Those limits being?

Hate speech. Charlie Hebdo never engaged in hateful drawings or commentary, and had a policy of attacking ideas and beliefs rather than groups of people.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Despite everything that had been said, the brilliant people who animated Charlie Hebdo knew all well  the legitimate limits of freedom of expression. Their drawings were often crude and provocative, but never hateful. Despite their old slogan, they were anything but "dumb and mean". They were animated by values of universal solidarity and peaceful coexistence. Yes, they were militant anticlericals, but frankly I don't think that's the main point. They opposed organized religions because they saw them as forces of hatred and oppression. That's their legacy IMO.

Those limits being?

Hate speech. Charlie Hebdo never engaged in hateful drawings or commentary, and had a policy of attacking ideas and beliefs rather than groups of people.

I trust you on this since you knew what Charlie Hebdo was before this happened and I didn't, but I think it's worth pointing out that this is often a finer line than we like to think.

Yes, I assume some will disagree with what I've said and cite drawings that maybe stretched this line a bit. But still, I don't think you will find any text or image from Charlie which directly attacked Muslims (or for that matter, Catholics or anyone else) as a people. I think that's worth reminding considering how often they've been wrongfully accused of being hateful douchebags. Nothing could be further from reality.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Despite everything that had been said, the brilliant people who animated Charlie Hebdo knew all well  the legitimate limits of freedom of expression. Their drawings were often crude and provocative, but never hateful. Despite their old slogan, they were anything but "dumb and mean". They were animated by values of universal solidarity and peaceful coexistence. Yes, they were militant anticlericals, but frankly I don't think that's the main point. They opposed organized religions because they saw them as forces of hatred and oppression. That's their legacy IMO.

Those limits being?

Hate speech. Charlie Hebdo never engaged in hateful drawings or commentary, and had a policy of attacking ideas and beliefs rather than groups of people.

What do you mean by "hate speech"? I don't the OP or anybody else would suggest that their legacy was one of racism or hatred (well, some people might, but not anyone who supported the cartoonists), though of course people should be free to express those things as well.

I just want to point out that Charlie Hebdo's line was very definite and not quite as "anarchical" or "inconsiderate" as some may have suggested. Certainly these people exercised their freedom of expression and took it very far, but they knew what they were doing - and what they didn't want to do.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Good job taking a picture that was denouncing racism and the FN completely out of context.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Of course you did. There are many lies that circulate online against Charlie Hebdo. They are hated by Islamist radicals and their apologists as much as they are by Catholic fundamentalists and far rightists.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Dark humour is the same as racism now? Yes, Charlie Hebdo didn't care to be in bad taste and make fun of the horrors of the world (that's why I'm sure they would have enjoyed the number of humorous cartoons that have been drawn about their deaths). Feel free to clutch your pearls. This doesn't change the fact that their commitment was deeply antiracist.

(note: the second one seems to be from the early Charlie Hebdo, of which I don't know enough to judge)

[Antonio the Sixth]

Dark humour is the same as racism now? Yes, Charlie Hebdo didn't care to be in bad taste and make fun of the horrors of the world (that's why I'm sure they would have enjoyed the number of humorous cartoons that have been drawn about their deaths). Feel free to clutch your pearls. This doesn't change the fact that their commitment was deeply antiracist.

(note: the second one seems to be from the early Charlie Hebdo, of which I don't know enough to judge)

It was still a post-68/leftist no respect publication and letting the Pope say "the French are as dumb as n****rs" is rather obviously part of its anti-clerical satire.

Yes, I know. I meant to say that I didn't have a personal experience of it so I don't feel like vouching for it. I certainly don't think it was racist either. On the other hand, I will always wholeheartedly defend post-1992 Charlie Hebdo, whose values are mine.

[Antonio the Sixth]

things i never thought i'd see: antonio using pegida-like claims that blacks and muslims in france are "powerful and oppressive"

what

[Antonio the Sixth]

things i never thought i'd see: antonio using pegida-like claims that blacks and muslims in france are "powerful and oppressive"

what

you claimed that black-/muslim-hating cartoons were emblematic of "fighting against power and oppression wherever you find it"

no

[Antonio the Sixth]

things i never thought i'd see: antonio using pegida-like claims that blacks and muslims in france are "powerful and oppressive"

what

you claimed that black-/muslim-hating cartoons were emblematic of "fighting against power and oppression wherever you find it"

no

i would hope not, but that's sure what it sounded like

You're making no sense whatsoever.

[Antonio the Sixth]

This is a funny argument. Everytime I read somebody on the left victim-blaming and alleging Charlie Hebdo is some sort of Front National rag, I feel inclined to disagree with them; but when I see these "helpful suggestions" to start printing pictures of Muhammed on every paper (and the ubiquitous "OMG SO EDGY I'M DRAWING MUHAMMED IN A BRA HAVING BUMSEX LOL TAKE THAT ISIS" ) I feel inclined to dislike them as well.

The point was to show that the fanatics haven't won. I don't have an opinion on the intrinsic value of Muhammad cartoons (some are funny, some definitely aren't) but when people get killed for having drawn them, responding with more drawing makes perfect sense.