Protestors Topple Confederate Monument in North Carolina

[Badger]

Ahhhhhhhhh, so vandalism and destruction of property is ok when it's lefties doing it? 

Thats always been the argument.

Yep. Black Lives Matter can protest and riot and set fire to stuff but Obama invites them to the White House. Imagine if Trump invited the KKK or these crazy nationalists to the White House. The libs would melt down. They're hypocrites.

Name one person involved in rioting (NOT peaceful protest) or setting fire to stuff Obama invited to the White House.

Go on. We'll wait. If you don't respond, we will all take that as an admission "I'm a moron who doesn't know what I'm talking about".

[Badger]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

Thomas, if you're trying to make the point that the men born in the early 20th century and (at least among officers) late 19th century are more socially conservative than the average person in the 21st century, you're not exactly giving us a hot take here. Nor a remotely relevant one.

Don't think for a second that non-Christians weren't heavily represented among WWII troops. Nor non-whites despite the official racism that kept them segregated. That's 2 + 2 = 5 wrong.

Nor believe for a second the many working class folks who served weren't AT LEAST as supportive of FDR as the rest of the country.

Oh, a Gallup poll in 1943 found the home-based electorate split for the next year's election, but the military vote was 61% for FDR and the Republicans. Which is why northern Republicans joined southern Democrats in opposing wholesale expansion of military voting access by federal statute.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.539.2788&rep=rep1&type=pdf

(see pages 19-20).

[Badger]

Durham (or Durham County) would have taken down the statue by now if the state legislature, which is highly gerrymandered to a Republican supermajority, hadn't passed a law making it impossible for local governments to remove confederate monuments without approval from a state historical commission.

But what is your position on how this monument came down?

Illegal. Somewhat sympathetic in light of the fact that simply going to one's local government and handling it in the ordinary Democratic process was for stalled by Neo Jim Crow state government, but still illegal.

[Badger]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

My grandfather was missing part of his hand thanks to a German artillery.  He was a lifelong union man who talked fondly about the Maori, Ghurkas and Berbers he fought alongside. He thought Trump was an idiot in the 1980s. He certainly would not have changed his mind if he were still alive. He was disgusted at Bill Clinton's lack of military service and would find Trump's personal cowardice and embrace of fascism deplorable. (Sure, he wouldn't agree with me on some things. But he'd be just fine with people beating up Nazis.)

He also thought Patton was a jackwagon who got his men killed to boost his own ego.

An ex-girlfriend of mine whom I dated for 5 years had a grandfather who fought in World War II he was decorated. Bronze star Silver Star, Purple Heart. I forget which regiment he was in, but it was V, and I mean the first boots to hit the ground on Omaha short of the paratroopers who came in the night before. He was literally Saving Private Ryan in carnate.

After the war he spent his career organizing unions and was a hardcore leftist until he died in his 80s in the early 2000's. His opinion of George W bush and the Iraq War would have been deleted by the mods for inappropriate language.

Anecdotal evidence isn't, but please take yourself out of this bubble that the greatest Generation veterans were a bunch of hard-working Republicans with few city boy Democrats and Southerners whose kids would windup Republicans who fought the war against Nazism. The existing empirical evidence such as what I previously cited demonstrates the troops were overwhelmingly Pro Roosevelt. The fact that a bunch of been born anywhere from a hundred to 130 + years ago may not have supported gay marriage is neither surprising, nor remotely relevant.

[Badger]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

My grandfather was missing part of his hand thanks to a German artillery.  He was a lifelong union man who talked fondly about the Maori, Ghurkas and Berbers he fought alongside. He thought Trump was an idiot in the 1980s. He certainly would not have changed his mind if he were still alive. He was disgusted at Bill Clinton's lack of military service and would find Trump's personal cowardice and embrace of fascism deplorable. (Sure, he wouldn't agree with me on some things. But he'd be just fine with people beating up Nazis.)

He also thought Patton was a jackwagon who got his men killed to boost his own ego.

An ex-girlfriend of mine whom I dated for 5 years had a grandfather who fought in World War II he was decorated. Bronze star Silver Star, Purple Heart. I forget which regiment he was in, but it was V, and I mean the first boots to hit the ground on Omaha short of the paratroopers who came in the night before. He was literally Saving Private Ryan in carnate.

After the war he spent his career organizing unions and was a hardcore leftist until he died in his 80s in the early 2000's. His opinion of George W bush and the Iraq War would have been deleted by the mods for inappropriate language.

Anecdotal evidence isn't, but please take yourself out of this bubble that the greatest Generation veterans were a bunch of hard-working Republicans with few city boy Democrats and Southerners whose kids would windup Republicans who fought the war against Nazism. The existing empirical evidence such as what I previously cited demonstrates the troops were overwhelmingly Pro Roosevelt. The fact that a bunch of been born anywhere from a hundred to 130 + years ago may not have supported gay marriage is neither surprising, nor remotely relevant.

The WWII generation voted for Democrats even into the 90's based on age stats in exit polls. Clinton carried the 50+ bracket both times.

Lots of people would denounce FDR and Truman as Sanders-like socialists if they ran today. I'm not a big fan of their economics, although that's a bit much.

Excellent point regarding comparisons between FDR, Truman and Sanders economic policy

[Badger]

Ahhhhhhhhh, so vandalism and destruction of property is ok when it's lefties doing it? 

Thats always been the argument.

The City of New Orleans is removing those monuments, the mayor of Lexington says he's having them removed......just a couple of examples.......I don't have a problem since they want it done legally.

Toppling them - criminal act, period.

     I can't agree strongly enough. The supportive reactions in this thread only serve to demonstrate the fundamental disrespect the left has for the rule of law. Take these statues down the right way: without a violent mob.

Well, in the case of NC, the white supremacist-sympathizing state legislature basically told them that they can't take them down at all without their approval (and we all know that will never happen). Not saying I support it, but I can kind of understand how these people feel when their own city governments are being controlled by state-level authoritarians who claim to love "states' rights" and "individual freedom" but don't like it when liberal jurisdictions do things like this.

This fact really makes me feel sympathy for this woman. Until I learned it I too thought what a flaming moron who deserves to get prosecuted. Maybe not prison time instead of probation, community service, and restitution, but still prosecuted. But the fact is her and the rest of the city's ability to democratically control such decisions without direct action has been deprived buy a racist Confederate worshipping the state government that is likewise insulated from Democratic popular will by Shameless gerrymandering.

Look, why didn't Rosa Parks just organized peacefully and democratically to desegregate the buses. Why did people have to do sit-ins at lunch counters when they could have just simply wrote their congressmen and senators? No, this woman is hardly Rosa Parks, and the presence of a Confederate statue is nowhere near as important as basic desegregation. But there is still a basic similarity involved where institutionalized racism and their symbols are protected from change through meaningful popular democracy.

Or put another way, if the legislature hadn't specifically gone to such lengths to force cities like Durham to keep their Confederate statues in place despite the willow the vast vast vast majority of his residence, no one would have needed to pull the statue down by force.

Oh, and yes, there is just a teensy teensy tiny difference between pulling down a statue and physically assaulting another human being, let alone running 20 of them down in the car

[Badger]

Oh, and yes, there is just a teensy teensy tiny difference between pulling down a statue and physically assaulting another human being, let alone running 20 of them down in the car

I don't think anyone said otherwise......oh and when are you leaving the BAL club?  You really need a red or socialist avatar,  you big lug. 

Sorry, "BAL"?

[Badger]

There's no reason any of these statues should be in museums. That's just a pure Moderate Hero stance.

Why not?

In public places, if the governments so choose, they should either be demolished or put away as a remnant of the celebration of a failed, rebellious nation.

What historical value do they have? Most aren't even from the Civil War era, they were built in the 30's or 60's by racist d-bag politicians as a way of giving the middle finger to the Civil Rights movement.

The way some conservatives talk about these things you'd think they believe that destroying the statues will cause people to forget the Civil War ever happened, which is preposterous. If Anything, most of the people pulling down these statues would be in favor of more education on slavery and the Civil War in schools.

I guess I agree with you on the post-Civil War ones.

But yeah I agree that this talk about forgetting the Civil War is idiotic.

But has was pointed out when this debate recently surfaced, saying and something I didn't know either, a large number, probably a majority from all indications, were erected during the mid-twentieth century as a direct reaction against the civil rights movement and support for Jim Crow.

The same thing incidentally occurred regarding state flags remaining of them were changed only then to incorporate the Confederate logo. Many of the southern states flags didn't have that imagery until oh Dr Martin Luther coon and Northern Jewish agitators started coming south to try stirring up our n******.