The Biggest Irony?

[Vepres]

I agree, unfortunately, both sides are at fault, but neither side will acknowledge their own faults.

Republicans are being obstructionist for petty political reasons. They act like they actually won in 2008, and that somehow the Democrats stole they election. Of course, some do feel like the White House has ignored them, but that may be the fault of their radical colleagues.

On the other side, many Democrats (including many on this forum) think that the party is being too spineless, bending backward too much. This is not true. Most people outside of the liberal wing of the Democratic party would say they're being too liberal. Indeed, it is very troubling that many Democrats were actually happy that Evan Bayh retired. That kind of attitude only feeds the problem.

I was watching Chris Matthews about an hour ago, and he was talking to two former moderate Senators. Cohen (R) and Breaux (D). At the end, to summerize, he said both sides should accept a half loaf of bread. Yet, Democrats want a whole loaf, and Republicans want no loaf.

People on both sides will disagree with this, but both parties are part of the problem. To both sides: I don't care if you think you're being reasonable and trying to cooperate (to Republicans) or too moderate (to Democrats) if you're not getting things through and solving problems, you're parties are clearly not being reasonable enough, cooperative enough, nor moderate enough.

We can only hope some reasonable third party puts one of those two dinosaurs to rest.[/rant]

[Vepres]

At the end, to summarize, he said both sides should accept a half loaf of bread. Yet, Democrats want a whole loaf, and Republicans want no loaf.

The voters gave the Democrats the whole loaf.

Democrats won campaigning as post-partisan, getting past the silly divides of the Bush years, ending the reckless spending, and to punish Republicans for ruining the economy. Frankly, healthcare and cap-and-trade were secondary issues. Also keep in mind the Democrats' majority was built on people like Evan Bayh and Ben Nelson and Mark Warner.

However, it doesn't really matter which of us is right. It is that attitude that has paralyzed our legislature. Besides us political geeks, nobody cares about "mandates" or "ideologies" or whatever silly terms we used. They care about the government functioning, and until people on both sides, including you and your side, are will to look at themselves objectively and change their attitudes, nothing will get done. People are pissed that the governing party has passed only three significant pieces of legislation, when we need more. People are mad that the man promising change is the most polarizing modern President.

Sorry Xahar, but if getting things done means triangulating with the minority, so be it. To continue that metaphor, when your starving, a half loaf is better than none.

[Vepres]

This is such utter nonsense. And no, I don't want to hear any of your "Oh but Marokai your disagreement just proves my point!!" bullshit.

Except, it does prove my point

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Considering that if Democrats controlled 3/4 of both chambers single-payer would likely still fail, it's not compromise but political reality.

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A number of Democrats opposed it, so your so-called "compromising" is still just to get the whole party on board. Ergo, it is still to the left of the country's center.

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I believe Lieberman is an "independent Democrat" who caucuses with you party, see above.

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Still within the Democratic party.

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You obviously think the center of your party is far more to the left than you think. Maybe Dodd or Reid gave up his whole loaf, but because too many in the caucus opposed whatever he would have wanted. Even without the filibuster, a single-payer, maybe even a strong public option, probably would not have passed. Hell, it only passed by 5 votes in the house.

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Gee, a few ideas in a 2000+ page bill. The CBO said none of the bills congress has considered would reduce the cost curve in price growth in any significant way.

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This is STILL to get a few Dems on board.

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No bill bended the cost curve, the main thing the GOP cares about in this issue, so really they're all useless bills in their eyes.

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Stop deluding yourself, the vast majority of the opposition were Democrats.

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Great, one guy.

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You link to a liberal blog. None of the sources showed what reasons those Republicans opposed it. Therefore, it seems to be spin.

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Yes, Democrats ought to be able to push through a liberal agenda. However, this is a center-right nation, you Dems must face political reality. The reality is, you won't be able to pass any programs if you spend months unifying your own party. This nation's political center is to the right of where you think it is. Passing something is better than passing nothing. If Mike Castle and Olympia Snowe are voting against this stuff, than it seems to me that they're simply too far to the left. Remember, Snowe voted for the stimulus, thus you cannot say she's being obstructionist.

You can whine and complain all you want, but congress should do something. If that means acting like Republicans have 50 seats, then so be it. You Democrats keep talking about how things aren't the way they ought to be, but never are honest about the reality. Sorry, but what the center is in your western European fantasy land is left-wing here. That's something you cannot change quickly, and so you can compromise and get things done during this recession, or you can whine about how Republicans are obstructionist.

Like I said, if the majority party cannot pass something without any support of the opposition, then the bill is too left-wing. If you proposed a right-wing bill, and I mean this literally, and they still oppose it, then you can call them out. But the Dems haven't

Again, get things done, albeit moderate (by American standards) or get voted out of power. Dems seem to have chosen the latter out of pride.

And don't say I don't criticize Republicans, I have in previous posts.