Israel

[Tory]

Israel held Gaza for the same reason why they should re-take it: because large swathes of Israel within pre-67 borders is unlivable due to the constant rocket fire coming out of Gaza and raining down on Israeli cities. The fence around the West Bank exists well beyond the green line because there were thoughts at one time of unilaterally withdrawing from the WB and handing the land to the PA. If Israel were to withdraw to pre-67 borders then terrorists could launch rockets to basically any part of Israel, putting millions of Israeli citizens in immediate danger. We're not talking about the rockets going into the sparsely populated north from Lebanon; we're talking about Tel Aviv and western Jerusalem becoming easy targets ready to be picked off. Israel is only 16 miles across at its thinnest point(!), and it's the thin parts that are most densely populated.

This isn't a discussion about settlements, its about the security of Israeli citizens residing in Israel-proper.

[Tory]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

What is "supposed to be"? The original state in 1948 or the pre-67 state? Their official boundaries are those of the pre-67 state. The rest of the land is occupied due to the fact that to withdraw from it would mean the destruction of Israel

[Tory]

To be honest, I can't think of a good reason, it's just the far-right pushing their imperialist goals.

And what has made you come to that conclusion?

The boundaries of Isreal are nowhere near where they were originally supposed to be.

What is "supposed to be"? The original state in 1948 or the pre-67 state? Their official boundaries are those of the pre-67 state. The rest of the land is occupied due to the fact that to withdraw from it would mean the destruction of Israel

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png

Those are the borders that Israel originally agreed to; it was the Arabs who disagreed.

[Tory]

Those are the borders that Israel originally agreed to; it was the Arabs who disagreed.

The other people, Arabs, to say: "Okay, but you know during these about 2000 years we took the ground and established our civilization on it too, why should we give you this?!? You come here if you want, but it's our ground". Jews to say: "Now I want the land, we really want a own land to no more be persecuted and this one is our! That's all!". Arabs to answer: "Okay, we want the same land, let's fight!". Jews won.

The problem is that the Arabs didn't really establish their civilization on the land considered Israel-proper. The vast majority of Arabs that call themselves "Palestinians" were fairly recent immigrants to the land, mostly from the area now known as Jordan(although because Transjordan was a part of the Palestinian mandate, they were technically "Palestinians"). Jews had also been in that particular area of the Ottoman Empire that Israel was carved out of since at least the late 1400's(in Jerusalem, Hebron, and particularly in Tsfat). It's a myth that this area was some sort of vibrant civilization, because up until the late 1800's there weren't many Jews or Arabs there.

[Tory]

I think Al deleted a thread about Zimbabwe because it ended up being another discussion about Israel.  We should try to keep everything about Israel here.

I wondered why that had gone.

Anyway, I have to say I am concerned that anti-semitism and anti-Zionism seem to frequently been conflated in the modern world. The two are very very different.

Many Muslims and the tradional far right use anti-zionism as a way to express their anti-semitism. The extreme anti-war left uses anti-semitism as a way to express their opposition to zionism. That's why the two become conflated.

[Tory]

Do you know how Israel treats Jewish converts to Christianity?

Better than how Saudis treat Islam coverts to Judaism?

Answer: There aren't any.

Any guesses as to why?

Because Judaism doesn't encourage conversion.

This is true, it takes something like seven years to convert as I recall.

It depends. Non-Orthodox conversions take about a year, maybe two, usually. Orthodox conversions done outside of Israel generally take two years to perhaps 3 or 4 if bureaucracy gets in the way. Within Israel all conversions are done through the state(Ministry of Immigration and The Chief Rabbinate) and take about 8 months. They are considered Orthodox, which is the only kind of conversion that Israel accepts for purposes of marriage, burial, official recognition by the chief rabbinate, etc etc. You can technically move to Israel and gain citizenship through having converted with a Progressive Jewish movement(Reform or Conservative), however you won't be able to marry or be recognized as a Jew by the religious establishment.