opinion of this scene

[Keystone Phil]

Tweed loves him some religion/God bashing. You're just so enlightened.

This was always one of the corny scenes that sticks out in my memory when I think of the West Wing. I mean, I literally start to gag. Oh, Jeb! Speak more Latin, baby. Show that God that you're in charge, Mr. President.

I love it. "3.8 million new jobs...bailed out Mexico...put Mendoza on the bench..."

Sure, it's dramatic but it's so incredibly corny.

[Keystone Phil]

I enjoyed the scene a lot.  It showed a frustrated president who had just lost an old friend in a car accident as confronting God with his grief and perceived injustice.  A lot of that same stuff goes on in the Psalms and the Book of Job.  But Skoble put God back in charge at the end of the same episode, when Mrs. Landingham appears in Bartlet's imagination in the Oval Office, and she gently scolds him, saying: "God doesn't make cars crash, and you know it.  Stop using me as an excuse."

That's true but the scene was still over the top. I'm not one of these people that think you can't be frustrated with God (though I'm sure many will mischaracterize me as one of those). I do, however, hate it when people get out of control. Stomping on the cigarette on the altar? Give it a rest, Jeb. Go stroke your ego about creating jobs and...uh...appointing someone as judge...somewhere else.

The scene was just a silly hat tip to progressives that had to live in a fantasy land during the Bush years. I bet they're all hoping that Obama pulls some similar stunt and somehow wins Nebraska, the Dakotas, Louisiana...

[Keystone Phil]

Tweed loves him some religion/God bashing. You're just so enlightened.

This was always one of the corny scenes that sticks out in my memory when I think of the West Wing. I mean, I literally start to gag. Oh, Jeb! Speak more Latin, baby. Show that God that you're in charge, Mr. President.

I love it. "3.8 million new jobs...bailed out Mexico...put Mendoza on the bench..."

Sure, it's dramatic but it's so incredibly corny.

Obviously have never seen the entire episode.... and its Jed Bartlet.

I've seen the entire episode several times. It's just so incredibly corny and it's meant for people like Tweed to drool over.

I always forget that the asshat is called Jed. Jeb just makes more sense "Josiah + Bartlett" but whatever.  

[Keystone Phil]

[The scene was just a silly hat tip to progressives that had to live in a fantasy land during the Bush years. I bet they're all hoping that Obama pulls some similar stunt and somehow wins Nebraska, the Dakotas, Louisiana...

If this was true, then there wouldn't have been the follow-up scene with Landingham scolding Bartlet for his impiety.  Neither would the whole "Take the Sabbath Day" episode have even been possible, where Bartlet gets hammered by a Jew, a Quaker and finally at the end a Catholic priest who he confesses to at the end of the episode for allowing a federal execution. 

Ok so just a jab at conservatives in general who support the death penalty and "claim" (a word I'm sure the writers would use) to be religious. 

My whole point here is that even if the writers intended for Bartlett to learn a lesson, the clueless, religion haters in the audience likely didn't pick up on it. Where was Tweed's post about the scene at the end? If this was truly supposed to be a religious debate, he would have posted that as well. No doubt that Tweed thought the whole egomaniac Bartlett act was "cool."

[Keystone Phil]

Phil, you aren't right.  I'm slightly tired of your attempts to channel my thought patterns.

I'm not channeling anything. I'm sorry to disappoint you but you're the most readable member here. You're not original. Sorry.

Why is this being episode being read into as a jab at religion? Take it for what it is: a cathartic release of raw human emotion.

I'm not saying that the episode is a jab; I think they thought the scene carried a bonus for fans like Tweed. That's all. I thought it was very silly and just plays into the idea that Josiah Bartlett has an absolutely insane ego.

[Keystone Phil]

Phil, you aren't right.  I'm slightly tired of your attempts to channel my thought patterns.

I'm not channeling anything. I'm sorry to disappoint you but you're the most readable member here. You're not original. Sorry.

it's amazing that you think you know my thought patterns better than I do.  and then you accuse me of having an enlightenment complex.

Your struggle makes me weep, my friend. How will the world ever come to appreciate your unique, complexities, Tweed?

[Keystone Phil]

If you are trying to sense some kinda extreme anti-religious bias in the West Wing, its not there.

As I've said several times now, I do not believe there is some anti religious bias in the show. I've said that the episode itself wasn't even a jab at religion. That has been ignored though. Try reading my points before responding.

I don't agree with the idea that Don Butler was seen as the bigger man. Vinick was always made out to be secular hero, telling the religious conservatives to keep their backwards ways in church, not in politics - "If you have questions about religion, go to church." Please don't tell me that the religious conservatives were made out to be nice, meek people in that final season, Super. Remember the campaign manager at the end and the discussions about the base?

[Keystone Phil]

And lets not forget that Matt Santos, the candidate designed to appeal most to the liberal audience of the show, explicitly believes in God, and intelligent design, and privately expresses to Leo that he opposes abortion.

Yeah, I know about all of the above but stuff like Vinick's "I'm lying to a liar" was probably seen as a good justification in the eyes of the viewers. I never took the whole Butler situation as anything but a huge eye roll at the silly religious conservatives.

It's true that the Catholic Church has never taught that the death penality should be abolished outright, but Roman Catholic theologians, the last two popes and the majority of Catholic bishops in the American conference have opposed its infliction by the state since the mid-70's.  In the espisode's concluding scene, Bartlet complains to Father Tom Kavenaugh (played beautifully by Karl Malden) that he has prayed and received no direction, and Malden again scolds him, saying that God has sent him a rabbi, a Quaker and a priest to advise him, tells him: "God is the only one who gets to kill people," and takes his confession at the end. 

Yes, I know but what is that a jab at? It's a jab at Bartlett not being in touch with a more liberal viewpoint of the Church. Again, I'm not saying that the writers try to bash religion at every turn in this show. They have, however, made it clear when they want to provoke an eye roll or poke fun at religious conservatives though.

[Keystone Phil]

But, I have to point out, Bartlett is an American Catholic, and there are plenty of Republican American Catholics.

Yeah, I know. I'm one of them. I don't know the relevance here.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes, I understand that but the point here is that it's a more liberal viewpoint. Bartlett didn't agree at first but then he had his "coming home" moment with the liberals on this issue. It was set up to remind people of the "better" views of the Church while other views were mocked.

[Keystone Phil]

The relevance is that you appear to associate every religious conviction that you disagree with as a "liberal" one.

Well, no, that's not true...

 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

First of all, I'm willing to bet that most American Catholics are in favor of the death penalty but even if they weren't, that doesn't suddenly make opposition to the death penalty a conservative viewpoint (at least by American standards).

 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It's coming home to a Catholic view but look at how it's done. I think the underlying message in a lot of these religious episodes is that religion can be good if done "our" way. So it's both a Catholic and liberal view.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In this case, they do and I think there is referencing to that in some of these episodes.

[Keystone Phil]

In the DVD commentaries, the writers seem to think that the entire situation was presented to put Vinick in the wrong.

Yeah, well, remember when the writers tried to sell us that they had Vinick winning the election but made Santos win after Leo died? 

[Keystone Phil]

This one is far better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI&feature=related

I can actually appreciate this one...except for the usual Jed Bartlett ego orgasm - "When the President stands, nobody sits" and "Toby, that's how I beat him."