Germany wins WW1? (user search)
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  Germany wins WW1? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Germany wins WW1?  (Read 24823 times)
afleitch
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« on: February 20, 2009, 06:34:09 PM »

I replied to something similar a while back;

Paris falls in '14-'15? Britain calls a truce and like gentlemen the powers of Europe on both side re-carve the world. Millions live and the royals families of Europe still visit each other on the holidays. The Tsar (or at least the regime) falls and is replaced by a democratic state. Germany has a go at playing games with European trade and consumerism grips Europe leading to general prosperity (but with slightly less technological advance) And a man named Adolf plays soldiers and get's gunned down by police in a pathetic little Bavarian protest.

The Allies capture Berlin - This would never happen. Germany would have put it's hands up long before things got to that level (indeed in 1918 they still had some strategic advantage but were just bogged down). Had it been Russians who reached there in say 1916 then Germany calls a truce and like gentlemen the powers of Europe on both side re-carve the world. Millions live and the royals families of Europe still visit each other on the holidays. The Tsar (or at least the regime) reforms and becomes a democratic state. Russia has a go at playing games with Asian trade and consumerism grips Europe leading to general prosperity (but with slightly less technological advance) And a man named Adolf plays soldiers and get's gunned down by police in a pathetic little Bavarian protest.

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The Austrian-Hungarians, however, likely would have done quite differently.  Italy would have experience major territorial losses in its Northeast, perhaps even losing Venice.  Serbia would fall completely under Austrian rule, as would Montenegro and Albania.  Romania would likely have been divided between Bulgaria and Austria.  Significant ethnic strife, and cleansing" would likely have ensued.

The Ottomans would probably try to lay claim to Greece, but success wouldn't be assured, with some gains in the Caucuses.  The Armenian genocide likely would have been even worse, and similar incidents would have occurred in all the lands the Ottomans nearly laid claim to.


I have a feeling the Ottomans would have walked away with nothing and collapsed anyway. Barring a few islands here and there, Greece was there to stay. The idea of surrendering the 'birthplace' of classical of European culture and thought (to which the Central Powers claimed to embrace) to the 'barbarous' and of course Muslim Ottomans would not be entertained. I have a feeling the Ottamans would have made a military move against Greece and seen Austrian forces intervene.

The Austrians would have room to territorially expand in the Balkans and in Venice. Moving beyond Galicia into the Ukraine and Poland was unlikely; Germany had no desire for manic expansion in Eastern Europe, but would create a half dozen buffer states (Poland, Livonia, Ukraine) between itself and Russia. Austria would get everything in the Balkans except Greece and Bulgaria. I agree Romana would have been vulnerable, but only to the extent that the Bulgarians got what was originally promised to them in the Treaty of San Stefano. Romania I can see being 'collapsed' into two client states, Moldova and Wallachia.
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afleitch
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 06:57:25 PM »

The Germans wanted to be masters of the continent.  They had no interest in dismantling Britain's overseas empire.  Even through 1940, they were not interested in that.  Even Hitler wasn't seeking to destroy the Empire, and the Tories new this, which is why they were so eager to sign a peace.

The Germans however didn't want to be terrirorial masters of Europe; the concept of Kleindeutschland - small Germany still held sway. However they certainly wished to be economic masters of Europe. Which is why I believe they would wish buffer client states that served the German economic machine. There would be something amazingly 'capitalistic' about the whole venture.
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afleitch
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 07:32:17 PM »

Can we make a game of this!! j/k

Also, I would in no way discount the possibility of a War Plan Red-Orange Scenario from happening.  A war between the United States and the combined forces of Britain and Japan.

While the Japanese would certainly be 'game' I don't think the British would be so bellicose. The US and the UK were not engaged in any turf war prior to WWI and relationships were cordial. I could only see a war if the US provoked it and Japan responded. If Japan provoked it, Britain would not go to war (assuming the alliance system had broken down after the Great War) and our alliance with Japan ended in 1924 IIRC

If there was a war the US would be very vulnerable. I don't want to presume that they would be defeated but the experience of a naval assault would be...unpleasant.
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afleitch
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 07:57:15 PM »

Can we make a game of this!! j/k

Also, I would in no way discount the possibility of a War Plan Red-Orange Scenario from happening.  A war between the United States and the combined forces of Britain and Japan.

While the Japanese would certainly be 'game' I don't think the British would be so bellicose. The US and the UK were not engaged in any turf war prior to WWI and relationships were cordial. I could only see a war if the US provoked it and Japan responded. If Japan provoked it, Britain would not go to war (assuming the alliance system had broken down after the Great War) and our alliance with Japan ended in 1924 IIRC

If there was a war the US would be very vulnerable. I don't want to presume that they would be defeated but the experience of a naval assault would be...unpleasant.

Red-Orange was the scenario that the U.S. War Department feared the most, it was the one they thought most likely, and the one they thought we couldn't win.

If you lost do you think the United States would remain 'united'? What was the strength of feeling?
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afleitch
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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 01:54:14 PM »

And here be an editable map of Europe (not my own creation)

Full size in the Gallery

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