Scotch-Irish?

[King of Kensington]

This seems to be an American term for Ulster Scots.  In popular culture the Scotch-Irish are thought to be synonymous with Southern whites in general and Appalachia in particular.  For instance, I recall reading that Obama couldn't appeal to the "Scotch-Irish vote" as if that exists.

Most actual data I've seen says that English ancestry is more common than Scots-Irish ancestry in Appalachia.  I've seen advocates of this argument stretch the definition of "Celtic peoples" to include even the northern English, and say they were fundamentally different from Puritan Anglo Saxons of New England.

Has this taken off because the English in America are thought of as upper class and Celtic people have a more "romantic" image (the freedom loving Braveheart stereotype)?

[King of Kensington]

But English ancestry was more common in the South in 1980 than anything else.  The only counties in the US where majorities said they were only English that year were in Eastern Kentucky. 

[King of Kensington]

I agree that English ancestry is greatly undercounted in the US.  There were 50 million in 1980, but then it dropped to 25 or 30 million two decades later; the drop was especially dramatic in the South.

[King of Kensington]

There was a lot of direct immigration to Utah of Mormons from England in the 19th century.  I believe Utah was about 13% British-born in 1890.

Mitt Romney is descended from 19th century English immigrants.  Since his roots are in northern England maybe Jim Webb would consider him "Scotch-Irish."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18422949

[King of Kensington]

While it doesn't in itself disqualify the "Celtic thesis", the fact that neo-Confederates like it so much certainly makes it suspect to me.

[King of Kensington]

If you want to answer the mystery of why so few Americans claim English ancestry when rather obviously a large majority of White (and... um... Black...) Americans have some, then the above is a better place to start. Your own cultural history is way more relevant on this point than ours.

I'm not sure if a majority of white Americans have English ancestry but it's far more common than what the census says (it's certainly not 9% or whatever).  In Pennsylvania and most of the Midwest I'm sure German ancestry has a plurality.  But the only areas where it can be said to be fairly uncommon are the NYC region and Wisconsin/Minnesota/the Dakotas.

In 1790 60% of whites were of English ancestry; surely the vast majority of those who trace their roots to colonial times have at least some English ancestry.  Plus later immigration from Britain and English Canada added to that.  

[King of Kensington]

Just as people don't want to claim English ancestry because of negative stereotypes about "WASPs," so also many people would much sooner claim Englishness and be a WASP than be Scots-Irish and a "hillbilly."

That census was taken long before Braveheart came out and Jim Webb wrote Born Fighting. 

[King of Kensington]

Pittsburgh was also known to be very Scots-Irish/Scottish, with immigration continuing into the 19th century, and the elite there tended to be Presbyterian rather than Episcopalian. 

[King of Kensington]

In 1980 English was more common than Irish (mostly Irish Protestant) ancestry in every Southern state.  For selected states:

Alabama

English  1,140,000  29.3%
Irish  633,000  16.2%

Arkansas

English  632,000  27.7%
Irish  475,000  20.8%

Georgia

English  1,584,000  29%
Irish  849,000  15.5%

Kentucky

English  1,267,000  34.6%
Irish  673,000  18.4%

Mississippi

English  656,000  26%
Irish  408,000  16.2%

North Carolina

English  1,778,000  30.3%
Irish  872,000  14.8%

South Carolina

English  803,000  25.7%
Irish  485,000  15.5%

Tennessee

English  1,435,000  31.3%
Irish  851,000  18.5%

Virginia

English  1,696,000  31.7%
Irish  849,000  15.9%

https://www.census.gov/population/www/censusdata/files/pc80-s1-10/tab04.pdf

[King of Kensington]

So I've been making a spreadsheet of the ancestry demographics of each state, and so far I have been combining "American" and English because of my very same suspicion that English ancestry is under-reported.  Is there a better suggested method that you guys think would be more accurate (because I now fear that I am almost entirely eliminating "Scotch-Irish").

I think that assumption is correct.  "American" ancestry is most common in places that saw a huge drop in English ancestry responses.

I'm quite confident the vast majority of those respondents are mostly or at least some English ancestry and there would be no overlap because American is a single response only. 

[King of Kensington]

There were something like 4.5 million Irish immigrants to the US in the 19th century, the majority (but no hard data) being Catholic. But surely at least 500,000 of these were Irish Protestants - not necessarily Ulster Scots - plus many would have come from Canada as well.  But for some reason the story of Irish Protestant immigration stops in 1800.  I guess they melted in so quickly and didn't settle anywhere in particular so they weren't really noticed.

[King of Kensington]

Largest cities for birth or parentage in Northern Ireland, 1930 (Irish Free Republic in brackets):

NYC  77,972 (535,034)
Philadelphia  69,104 (115,252)
Chicago  23,987 (169,568)
Boston  19,265 (140,083)
Pittsburgh  15,716 (31,110)

Of course we don't how many are Anglo-Irish, Ulster Scots or Catholics.

One Irish American historian (Doyle) said 10% of Famine and post-Famine immigrants were Catholic, another (Miller) estimates around 20%.  I'm inclined to say it's closer to the latter.

I also read that there were about 50,000 Irish-born Protestants in NYC in 1860, about 20% or so.  If I take a wild guess and say two-thirds of Northern Irish and 10% of those from the Republic were Protestant, in NYC it came to 17% which is pretty close. 

This also seems to confirm that Pennsylvania attracted a lot of Irish Protestant immigrants.

[King of Kensington]

Yes, should read 80-90% Catholic.

[King of Kensington]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grady_McWhiney

[King of Kensington]

Pseudo-history at its most cringeworthy right there.

I blame Mel Gibson and Jim Webb for popularizing this idea. 

[King of Kensington]

White population in selected states, 1790:

Virginia

English/Welsh:  375,799  85%
Scotch/Irish:  40,233  9.1%

North Carolina

English/Welsh: 240,309  83.1%
Scotch/Irish:  39,039  13.5%

South Carolina

English/Welsh:  115,480  82.4%
Scotch/Irish:  20,023  13.4%

Even if we make the generous assumption that the Scottish/Irish share is double the reported figures, they still lag way behind the English.  

[King of Kensington]

A Celtic heritage for the Upland South would not be attributed to the Southern planter class - but rather to distinguish themselves from it. Similarly, former indentured servants, who moved west where they could own land, might have a folk memory of being treated as slaves by the Anglican planters.

But if most were never "Celtic" to begin with, why would they identify as such?

[King of Kensington]

So I've been making a spreadsheet of the ancestry demographics of each state, and so far I have been combining "American" and English because of my very same suspicion that English ancestry is under-reported.  Is there a better suggested method that you guys think would be more accurate (because I now fear that I am almost entirely eliminating "Scotch-Irish").

I am also dividing the stated percentages by the total population and then dividing that number by the White population of each state, because I would be much more interested to know what percentage of White people are of each European ancestry (obviously MOST minorities are not going to be of majority European ancestry, LOL).

Very interested to see how this turns out.

I just started a new job (which could be a real positive turn in my career for how relatively young I still am), so I won't be finishing it anytime soon.  However, here is what I have so far (I cherry-picked some states that I thought would be more interesting):

TOP EUROPEAN ANCESTRIES BY STATE (% OF WHITE PEOPLE IN STATE) (English and "American" are combined into "English")
Illinois
29.50% German
18.60% Irish
17.60% English
11.00% Polish
8.90% Italian
3.40% Swedish
3.10% French

Indiana
26.40% German
24.20% English
12.50% Irish
3.50% Polish

Iowa
39.10% German
17.60% English
14.80% Irish
6.20% Norwegian

Minnesota
45.30% German
19.90% Norwegian
14.00% Irish
11.50% Swedish

Wisconsin
49.40% German
12.60% Irish
10.80% Polish
9.90% Norwegian
7.50% English
7.10% Italian

South Carolina
33.70% English
12.70% German
11.90% Irish

Good stuff but it probably deserves its own thread.

[King of Kensington]

If your new neighbor is O'McGibson are you going to complain that he doesn't have a powdered wig like your former master (not employer)? No you are going to get along fine, particularly if he has a comely, marriageable daughter. Your children might remember Grandpa O'McGibson, since Grandpa Smith died when you were 12 - that is why you ended up being indentured in the first place. Even if you were not wholly Celtic (O'McGibson wasn't either, being part Briton, part Celt, part Saxon, with additions of Norman and Viking). It doesn't take that many generations to go from identifying with the Celts to identifying as a Celt.

And from celebrating the Battle of the Boyne with parades and fireworks to celebrating the 4th of July with parades and fireworks.

The Scots-Irish, being a minority, would melted into the larger Anglo Saxon group, not the other way around.

Since there was a lot of racist pseudoscience in the 19th century, you'd think there would be ample evidence that the planter class saw themselves as a different race than the poorer "Celts."

[King of Kensington]

In every Southern state in 1980, English ancestry outnumbered Irish ancestry.   And most of the former said they were only of English ancestry.  For the region as a whole:

English ancestry

Total:  19,618,370
Single ancestry:  12,382,681  

Irish ancestry

Total:  12,709,872
Single:  3,593,729

[King of Kensington]

I don't know where to find it online. 

[King of Kensington]

Did they outnumber English single ancestry in the Southern counties on that list?

[King of Kensington]

For St. Patrick's Day:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-Americans-are-more-Protestant-than-Catholic.html