Let's discuss Mormonism.

[Zioneer]

Edited the post with as much LDS topics as I could think of at the moment. If I talk about more LDS topics, I'll add them to the beginning post as I explain.

[Zioneer]

How strictly do most Mormons take the ban on caffinated tea/coffee (or even alcohol)?

I ask because there are Muslims who do drink alcohol on occasion.

Mormons take it very seriously, probably even more seriously than Muslims do these days (besides Senator Crapo, of course). If you drink alcohol as a Mormon, you're shunned until you stop doing it. Besides the Mariott hotels, alcohol is not usually served at Mormon-owned restaurants and hotels. Missionaries are told to (politely) refuse alcohol, even if doing so would prevent a conversion.

During the early history of the church, even after it became a restriction, alcohol was drunken more frequently; Joseph Smith, the prophet who gave the restriction, imbibed on occasion (antagonistic ex-Mormons like to claim that he did it after sermons teaching about the restriction), and Brigham Young owned a saloon. It really came into prominence after polygamy was ended. After we stopped practicing plural marriage, our dietary code became our dominant cultural indicator. One of the prophets (Joseph F Smith, who was the original Joseph's nephew) even advocated refraining from eating meat at all.

In any case, from what I understand, some Mormons in Idaho (which I'm guessing you're implying with your post) have a "nudge-nudge wink wink" under-the-table attitude towards drinking alcohol, but it is definitely dissolved of publicly by all Mormons.

With tea and coffee, it's still disapproved of, but not as vehemently as alcohol. It's more of a "you know you really shouldn't..." than a "this is vile" feeling. Herbal teas and non-caffeinated coffee is imbibed heavily by a lot of Mormons, and that's considered a-okay. One big change in the Word of Wisdom dietary code done this year is that the LDS Church clarified that caffeinated sodas are fine, as the revelation itself refers to "hot drinks" (tea and coffee).

[Zioneer]

Mormonism is a male-dominated religion that started in mid-1800s male-dominated culture (and to be honest, has only advanced to the 1950s in most ways), and it's really seen as what men should do.

Missionary work isn't technically a requirement, but they highly encourage it, and to be considered a "good Mormon man", you basically have to do it. And as a side note, you don't get to choose where you go; the First Presidency of the Church are said to pray over where each missionary will go, but I'm pretty sure the lower-level leaders mostly decide it themselves. Thankfully, if you have a disability or special needs (autism, and such), then they tend to understand, and give you a "service" mission, mostly helping in the church-owned Family History Library and all that. Since I have Aspergers and a host of physical health problems, I'm fairly sure I'll have a service mission.

If you want to know more about how a mission tends to work, watch The Other Side of Heaven, a very good movie about the struggles of a missionary in Tonga.

[Zioneer]

Have you noticed ever some sort of "Mormon accent"? Supposedly Mormons often tend to talk in a very folksy manner, like how they did in Napoleon Dynamite. I should listen if I run into some missionaries again.

That's more of the Utah accent, but yeah. We don't pronounce the "T"s in words like mountain, kitten, mitten, and etc. Also, we pronounce "milk" as "melk". We're also really nasally. Like a cross between the Minnesota accent and the California accent.

[Zioneer]

By the way, I'm getting a book in the mail called Chosen People, Promised Land, which talks about Mormonism in Hawaii. I should be getting it in the next 1-3 days, so after I get it, I should be able to answer questions about the affect Mormons have had on Hawaii.

One random note of interest I can tell you now is that Hawaii being a state is partially the fault of the Mormons. Y'see, there was this modern adventurer type named Walter M Gibson. Apparently he liked to run around doing anything and everything, and eventually he joined the LDS Church and was sent to build a Mormon colony in Hawaii. He did so in Lana'i, but was excommunicated a short while later for preaching false doctrine (though until that book arrives, I won't know exactly what he taught), embezzlement of church funds, and improper administration of the colony. From what I understand, he seized half of the colony, and expelled anyone who disagreed with him or his splinter church.

After that, he angles for secular power, and rises through the ranks before becoming Prime Minister of Hawaii. With his characteristic over-dramatics, he tries to convince the Hawaiian monarch to create a "Pacific Empire", but whatever scheme he cooks up with the King falls through, and he is deposed and forced to flee the islands. Walter M Gibson dies penniless. However, the damage to the monarchy (through revolution and such) is done, and within the next decade, Hawai'i is annexed to the United States. If Gibson had never been to Hawaii, maybe else would've come along, but I do find it hilarious that I can claim that it is (partially) the Church's fault that Hawaii is part of America.

[Zioneer]

What is the religious/cultural reason Mormons have such large families still to this day, particularly inasmuch as the LDS allows the use of birth control as I understand it?  And how does the LDS church induce couples to make such a huge sacrifice, financial and otherwise?  Folks in the LDS just seem so usually willing to hew to those in authority, in a nation whose folk culture is to distrust authority. In that regard, I heard somewhere that a disproportionate percentage of LDS women are on anti-depressents. Is that true?

Well, for one, we take the commandment to "multiply and replenish the Earth" very seriously. Most Mormons have grown up with large families, and they like fulfilling the commandment while having a strong safety net in case they mess up, which is what having a large family gives them.

Birth control isn't really used, even in marriage (which is the only time in which it's allowed), and it's frowned upon by church members.

The LDS Church teaches that if you endure hardship, you will later earn blessings appropriate to your sacrifice; so if you faithfully pay tithing, you'll happen across and financially positive situation (getting a good job, or happening across money that no one claims even after you ask everyone). The Church also allows struggling members and friendly non-members to pay incrementally for items at the church-owned chain thrift store Deseret Industries (DI). Basically, you take in a document called a "bishop's order", and it means the church pays for you to buy something from DI (so paying itself, essentially), which you can gradually pay off with no interest. It of course gives items and food free if you need it, but most people are too proud for that, and many live off of food stamps anyway. I work at a DI in Utah. The DIs usually help struggling families.

And the Church doesn't induce people to have large families, though they definitely encourage it. Butts in pews and all that.

And indeed, we are very willing to submit to religious authority, as even though everything our prophet says is not theologically doctrine, we treat it as it is. We really venerate our church leadership to an honestly unhealthy degree. Political authority.... Only if it's Republican. Most Church members are wary at best of Democrats, and distrust the Feds in any case. There's a thriving libertarian minority who distrust both sides, but even they are more moralistic than their counterparts in other states. In any case, that was actually one of the criticisms of Mormons in Illinois and Missouri; that in an era of swing-voting and distrust of authority, the Mormons trusted their leaders and voted as a bloc. The only time we were swing voters was in 1960, when Nixon won Utah by only 5,000 votes.

As for the anti-depressants thing, it's absolutely true (but hard to prove the exact percentages). We're also leading the nation in pornography usage. There's a reason we're sarcastically called "Happy Valley".

And anyway, I got that book on Mormonism in Hawaii the other day, so any questions about that will be answered, especially on the status of Native Hawaiians in LDS theology.

[Zioneer]

Great post, you "liberal" Mormon you. Thanks for taking the time to accommodate by "nosiness." How close are you to being in a state of heresy in The Church?  

Well, I'm putting in my papers to apply for a two-year mission, so you tell me.

Side note; I'll repeat this year as I have at other times; the missionary does not choose where they get to go for the two-year mission. The Church leadership does, and they don't tell you until a few weeks or months after your papers are finished. One of my friends went to the Oklahoma City Spanish-speaking mission. He had no clue beforehand that he'd go there.

[Zioneer]

What view do Mormons take on the Catholic Church? I remember reading somewhere that in the past a few described it as the Whore of Babylon. Also, I ask because some of my Mormon friends have asked me, upon finding out I was a Catholic, "Are Catholics Christians?"

In the past, yeah, it was pretty much described as the Whore of Babylon, mainly because it was a scary hierarchical church that was already feared and hated by the New Englanders/Midwesterners that Joseph Smith grew up with and who were the main early converts to the LDS Church. The Book of Mormon never explicitly identifies the Whore of Babylon as the Catholic Church though, and in recent years we've had a lot of success converting people from majority Catholic countries (no idea why), so we've long since dropped that. It didn't really help early efforts in say, Italy, though.

And as for your friends asking if Catholics are Christians, were they brought up in a majority-Mormon area? It's possible that their parents had misconceptions which no one bothered to correct. Also, some Mormons (not any that I know personally though, and I live in the heart of Mormondom) may think of "Christianity" as Protestantism, as that's the kind that our religious narrative mostly concerns.

Im a Mormon and consider myself a Christian for what its worth but im not big on religion...

Really? Well then, huzzah for another Mormon on the forum! Even if you are conservative.

[Zioneer]

See, this is how you tell a liberal Mormon (like myself) from a conservative Mormon. A liberal Mormon is absolutely fine with a situation like that happening.

[Zioneer]

Liberal Mormon? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Not for me; I see my own personal faith as directly connected to my own personal politics. I don't think all Mormons should be liberals, but I believe that my own thoughts on my faith lead me to a leftist political ideology.

[Zioneer]

I thought Mormons were forced to be conservative by the church.

Nope! We've actually got a few high-profile liberals. Gladys Knight, Ken Jennings, Harry Reid (though he's a centrist hero, he's also in favor of gay marriage), and a few others I can't remember right now.

This is a very interesting thread, and I'm sorry you're attacked like this. I'd like to gain some insights on Mormon culture.

Now let me pose a scenario that I think hits on the questions that come to mind. (I'm taking cues from Tweed, so bear with me here). How do Mormon missionaries approach people in cities? Now let's say some missionaries end up in my house- what do I serve them? What do Mormons drink? Now, let's say I'm not so taken with the word but rather the messenger. How receptive are Mormons to relationships with non-Mormons? Persons of colour? How quickly do Mormon relationships "move"- say, into marriage.

Thanks for your apologies (even though it wasn't your fault), though I will say that I'm mostly unaffected by the attacks nowadays. It just isn't worth getting worked up over them.

As for missionaries... Well, missionaries used to do door-to-door proselytizing, but that's fallen out of favor these days (for obvious reasons). Now we mostly do referrals from active members, and a few community events (though I don't know the exact situation, as I have not been a missionary yet). You can serve missionaries anything but alcohol, coffee, and tea. Herbal tea is usually fine, though a lot of Mormons can't tell the difference between herbal tea and regular tea (or that they can drink it). Caffeinated drinks like Coca-Cola and Pepsi are fine, at least now.

As for liking the messenger, a lot of missionaries are men (but not all, many are women), so....

Seriously though, missionaries are strictly forbidden to date, or even take part in halfway romantic actions. Those who violate the mission code of conduct are severely punished, and those who sleep with "investigators" (those taught by the missionaries) are usually sent home immediately as it is known.

And most Mormons are not interested in relationships with non-Mormons, as a Mormon married to a non-Mormon can't be married to that person for all of eternity, and cannot enjoy the eternal blessings promised in our theology. Oh, and Mormon women are especially picky, since they can't have the religious benefits of the LDS priesthood without an LDS guy. Members of the LDS Church are big on priesthood/blessings/etc.

Persons of color.... Well, I'm sure you know about the LDS Church's past problems with black people? Yeah, that's left a nasty legacy. Interracial marriage/relationships are still very rare (with most LDS interracial marriages/relationships being White/Hispanic or White/Polynesian). In fact, the LDS Church leadership still recommends for young adults (as of the most recent Young Adult handbook) having a relationship with someone from your own ethnicity and economic class, simply because it's easier to connect with people in your same groups. I mean, they don't condemn it anymore (like in the days of Ezra Taft Benson), but having that "we recommend same-ethnicity relationships" bit in 2013 is a bit... archaic.

As for moving onto marriage, many relationships are very quick to move onto marriage, but others go on for years. Acendotally, my parents dated for 4 years before marrying. On the other hand, Brigham Young University (BYU) has a reputation of having Mormon women coming there for "Mrs. Degrees" or a "degree in marriage". Some Mormons get married after two or three months, though they're usually seen as a bit rash.

Though keep in mind that my own perspective and knowledge is only relevant in Utah. In states where Mormons aren't the majority, things might be different. Though the basic "want to have spouse/non-married significant other be Mormon from the start or end up Mormon eventually" applies to basically all Mormons.

Any other questions on Mormon culture? I'm happy to answer any more questions you might have.

[Zioneer]

What "priesthood benefit"s do LDS women get if their husband is also LDS, that they don't get if their husband is a gentile?  

Well, as I said, they don't get to be married for all eternity, which LDS women take very seriously. So do LDS men, and they can't be married for all eternity to a non-LDS woman.

Additionally, LDS folks believe in a form of faith healing; those men who "hold" the priesthood are supposed to be able to literally perform miracles if the sick person and the priesthood holder both are worthy and have faith that the sick person can be healed.

And on a more broad scale, having a priesthood holder in your home brings blessings that an LDS person doesn't even think about. It's not all good things all the time, but having a member of the priesthood (which is every worthy LDS male), in your home is supposed to help your life turn out well overall.

Hope you don't mind the question:

What happens to Mormons who do drink alcohol, coffee or tea? Is it considered a serious sin that would have serious consequences?

Well, it varies, depending on the bishop you talk to about it. Some revoke your temple recommend (which allows you to go to an LDS temple and take part temple rituals like baptism for the dead, sealing of you to your spouse and your kids for all eternity, etc). Others don't care all that much, as long as you're a good person. They're usually harsher on the new converts, to keep those new converts from having alcohol/coffee/tea again.

Usually though in any case, its only really bad if you keep doing it repeatedly. It's like how a Jewish person who had pork once wouldn't be looked down upon, but if they kept doing it and showed no remorse for doing so (while still being part of an Orthodox tradition), there'd be a problem.

And since the Church leadership clarified recently that the previously frowned-upon Coca-Cola and Pepsi (and other very caffeinated drinks) are now okay, I get the feeling that that doctrine will be moderated even more soon.

[Zioneer]

How can drinking alcohol be considered reprehensible or even sinful? After all, Jesus drank wine and nowhere does the Bible condemn moderate consumption of alcohol.

This is how. Of course, originally it (the Word of Wisdom) was more of a suggestion, and not really enforced, but nowadays, it's become a dietary code (though the "have very little meat" part is ignored completely by most Mormons), and more of a cultural symbol of Mormonism.

Is it true that close to half of adult Mormons are converts? Something I remember hearing, though I don't know if that's worldwide instead of just the US, or something like the US outside of Utah, or something like that.

I have no idea; though it sounds like that would be most accurate outside of the US. The LDS Church is massive in Central and South America. We're even building a new missionary training center in Mexico.

[Zioneer]

How can drinking alcohol be considered reprehensible or even sinful? After all, Jesus drank wine and nowhere does the Bible condemn moderate consumption of alcohol.

Can't speak as to Mormon doctrine, but I get a fairly healthy dose of Adventist doctrine on the subject from a radio station I listen to. (I don't always agree with them, but their station often has the most tolerable stuff to listen to while I am in the car.) They point out that the Greek word for wine also encompassed grape juice, much as the word cider in the English language includes both soft cider and hard cider.  So they insist that Jesus drank unfermented grape juice.  Their arguments that he must have rather than he could have seem to be based more on arguments that he would not have had anything to do with destructive alcohol than a specific scriptural basis.

Mormon doctrine is basically the same, though a few Mormons admit that it's really unlikely that Jesus drank grape juice.

[Zioneer]

What percentage of Mormons still go to church semi regularly, who are shut out of the Temple because they did not tithe, admit to drinking, or whatever, so they don't get the ticket of good standing from their stake leader. I am just wondering how active Mormons are in their church who are in the twilight zone because they don't hew to all the rules - and either admit it, or are caught. What I am getting at, is if you go to an LDS church service any given Sunday, is basically everyone in attendance "true blue" and obedient - and tithes, or not (putting aside recent recruits of course)?

Well, there's a few on the fringes of the community who still come to a church service who are not "worthy", and even fewer who flaunt their "unworthiness" while still going to church but the LDS Church is one of the most culturally binary faiths ever; most people who aren't "worthy" don't attend church, and those who have serious disagreements with the church tend to cut themselves off forever from the LDS Church and LDS culture.

Most people who go to weekly services are at least trying to follow all the rules. And knowledge of such things is usually obtained through the ward (remember, that's the LDS version of a congregation) rumor vine.

[Zioneer]

I thought Mormons were forced to be conservative by the church.

Nope! We've actually got a few high-profile liberals. Gladys Knight, Ken Jennings, Harry Reid (though he's a centrist hero, he's also in favor of gay marriage), and a few others I can't remember right now.

The Udalls are Mormon, if I recall correctly.

Tom Udall is, but Mark Udall is not. Tom is the son of Stewart Udall, who remained faithful to the LDS Church. Mark is the son of Mo Udall, who became inactive (never removed his name from the church records though), and did not raise his children in the Mormon tradition. I actually have a biography on Mo Udall, and it's fascinating. He "left" the Church from an early age, but he was always identified as "Mormon", and he neither refuted nor approved the media claiming he was.

[Zioneer]

Anyone still interested? I'm still willing to answer Mormonism-related questions.

[Zioneer]

Anyone still interested? I'm still willing to answer Mormonism-related questions.

My interest in Mormonism had and has nothing to do with Mittens, and never has. I never cared about his religion vis a vis his act in the public square. So I am still here, following this thread with interest.

The last LDS folks who came to my door were there to urge me to vote against gay marriage, least churches have to solemnize wedding ceremonies of f****ts. There were not there to save my soul. Only JW's hit me up regularly now. Has the LDS church decided that ringing doorbells to spread the word is a thing of the past?

Sort of; from what I understand, there's been legal and social kerfuffles with door-to-door-proselytizing, and it isn't as successful as it used to be, but it still continues. The real growth is through referrals, where active members point out people that may be interested (or point out inactive members). We still do a lot of door-to-door preaching in Latin America and Africa though.

[Zioneer]

By the way, I'm going on my LDS mission in a little more than a month, so if you have any more questions about Mormonism, ask before then.

[Zioneer]

By the way, I'm going on my LDS mission in a little more than a month, so if you have any more questions about Mormonism, ask before then.

So where are you headed, or do you not know that yet?

LDS missionaries don't know where they're headed until they receive a letter from the Brethren (term for the collective leadership). Since I have Asperger's Syndrome though, I'm probably not going to be going out of Utah. They don't tend to send autistic young men away from their families. I don't know if they'll say yes or no to me going at all, but I predict that I'll have a "service" mission, which is less door-to-door preaching and more just helping out at places like the Family History Center (which has more genealogical records than almost any other place on Earth),

By the way, I'm going on my LDS mission in a little more than a month, so if you have any more questions about Mormonism, ask before then.

So how many wives do you have?

Fifty. Thousand.

No, but seriously none. I haven't even gone on more than 3 dates in my life. And most modern Mormon men stay married to one woman their entire lives.

Have you heard anything thought the grapevine about what the LDS leadership in hindsight thinks about its full court press involvement (using below the belt tactics) in pushing for the anti-gay prop 8 measure in CA?

I've heard that the leadership regrets the negative backlash that they encountered from Prop 8, and they've accordingly decided to refrain from pushing any other anti-gay-marriage legislation (notice how Washington State and other states didn't have any real LDS opposition when they've been passing gay marriage). It seems that church lawyers are pinning their hopes on the Supreme Court, but based on their approval of anti-discrimination measures in Utah, I think they realize they're losing this fight.

[Zioneer]

Thanks for the responses Zioneer, as always. You seem amazingly lucid given your condition, but then it is one that I don't understand. That was not covered much in my NAMI classes.

I once went to an LDS Family Center because I needed to sign a declaration in a real estate adverse possession case, where the technical owner were unknown issue of a guy who died in about 1910, then I had made a good faith effort to track them down. So off to the Family Center. The guy there was most helpful - almost too helpful in fact. What amazed me was that the billions of names, and the attendant information, was all on about 30 CD's maybe, stacked on top of one another on this cylinder resting on a plate sitting on his desk. Man, things have changed. I can't imagine was it was like before information could be cyber stored.

Well, my Asperger's Syndrome doesn't affect my writing all that much (besides making it slow, unemotional, and plodding whenever I try and write fiction), it's more of social situations where I am impaired. And even then, I'm apparently fairly good at appearing "normal".

As for your experience,, yeah, that tends to be the Mormon way of helping. We really get into it. Nowadays we a lot more sophisticated technology for that sort of thing, but we still use microfilm readers to read old records.

Any more questions?

[Zioneer]

Thread, rise from your grave!

Anyway, so I've just been told that I'm going to be doing an LDS service mission (not a normal proselytizing mission), so I felt it was time to revive the thread and answer your questions. So ask away!

[Zioneer]

Bumping this, with the added note that you're going to see LDS missionaries online now. New policy change. I'm doing a service mission so it doesn't apply to me, but normal missionaries are being allowed to talk to folks online now.

[Zioneer]

Bumping this, with the added note that you're going to see LDS missionaries online now. New policy change. I'm doing a service mission so it doesn't apply to me, but normal missionaries are being allowed to talk to folks online now.

It would be nice to be left alone.

Hey, at least I won't be the one trying to convert you over the 'net. Chalk me up as someone who isn't going to be converting anyone.

[Zioneer]

Do the majority of Mormons consider Mormonism as a part of Christianity? 

To add to that question; If they do consider themselves Christian, do they think of themselves as Protestants or as their own group?

Yes, we do consider ourselves Christians (It's in our official freaking name after all), and yes we consider ourselves Protestant (of a sort. Insisting that we're the only "true" church puts us into a weird category).

Our religious culture has a lot of respect for Martin Luther (we kind of quietly sidestep the antisemitism he expressed), and especially for the early Bible Latin-to-English translators. Those Mormons who know of him (and we had a movie about his troubles) friggin love John Wycliffe.

I actually have a very weird opinion on Mormons being Christians; I believe that, but I also think that because of our idiosyncrasies, we could consider ourselves the fourth Abrahamic religion. I also fervently believe in Joseph Smith's teaching that every other religion teaches at least a little bit of the truth. I'm still a Mormon, but for example I think Buddhism has some excellent teachings.