Is fornication sinful?

[DC Al Fine]

Yes, especially when we consider what tends to happen to the children produced in such unions.

[DC Al Fine]

Yes, especially when we consider what tends to happen to the children produced in such unions.

I was a child born out of wedlock. My parents had been together for a couple years, but they didn't get married until I was almost 5. I like to think I turned out okay, and my parents are fortunately still together.

To answer the question here, no, I do not think so.

I was talking about the tendency to murder the children produced by such unions, not how the children themselves turn out.

[DC Al Fine]

To respond to the topic at large, I think liberal attitudes towards fornication are perfectly logical if one accepts a liberal basis for sex in general and marriage and divorce in particular; "being in love" as Cassius put it.

However since I reject those notions as the basis of sex in marriage, I must view fornication as immoral.

[DC Al Fine]

Why are you guys assuming that sex will result in pregnancy?  Ever heard of birth control? Gay people?

Well, I was just referring to one of the many reasons pre-marital sex is a bad idea. I'm restricticing my commentary since homosexuality is a whole other kettle of fish. As for birth control, in aggregate sex results in pregnancy.

Today, it's perfectly normal and healthy to have pre-marital sex.  In fact, it's quite strange to abstain from pre-marital sex.

Everyone is doing it? What on earth does popularity have to do with morality? I hear incest is quite popular in some parts, but it's still wrong to bang your siblings.

Did you know the average age of first marriage is 27?  Who is going to wait until they're 27 to have sex?  That's nuts. Sex and relationships are so important to being happy and having a good quality of life.  It's waaay too important to sacrifice at the altar of Taliban-like religious asceticism.

Indeed it is nuts. It's also completely irrrelevant to my point. Why is the median marriage age 27? In part because we are in a secular culture in which pre-marital sex is a given.  Ultra-Conservative Christians structure their lives differently. For example: the median marriage age in my congregation is about 21. Heck, my sister in law got married at 18.

As St. Paul said "But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." It's your culture that makes waiting until marriage difficult, not mine.

[DC Al Fine]

That chart is kinda misleading ... people think it means "oh, condoms only work 98% of the time," and think that condoms fail once every 50 times even if used correctly.

It means that couples who have sex regularly for a year have a 2% chance of getting pregnant if they correct use a condom every time. The odds of getting pregnant with a single sexual encounter while using a condom are far less than 2%.

Let me add that I'm fully aware you didn't try to make the "2% of the time you still get pregnant with a condom!" argument, but people on your side make that false argument pretty often, so I felt the need to point it out.

Wouldn't the average use numbers be more relevant? Yes, some of it is due to lack of education (especially with condoms I imagine), but human error is a huge component here. A hypothetical female you might remember to take her pill everyday. Her airheaded friend who forgets her homework constantly might not

[DC Al Fine]

How is this even close?

I resent people suggesting that my common law relationship is sinful in any way.

I think most people aren't arguing that sex outside of marriage is morally wrong, they're arguing that it's sinful.  Sinful is something apart from morally wrong.  I think it means something like, God doesn't like it.

So, a religious fundamentalist might say that sex outside of marriage can be perfectly fine from a moral perspective as far as earthly reasoning goes, but God said it's prohibited.  We as puny humans might not understand why God hates sex outside marriage, gay people, women, music, dancing or shellfish, but according to a fundamentalist, we just listen to the minutia of the scriptures above our common sense.  That's one of the big problems with taking religion too seriously.  Religious people in general need to cool their jets with these black and white pronouncements about what is forbidden by their Gods.

When you're done beating up that strawman you really ought to address some actual arguments.

[DC Al Fine]

Today, it's perfectly normal and healthy to have pre-marital sex.  In fact, it's quite strange to abstain from pre-marital sex.

Everyone is doing it? What on earth does popularity have to do with morality? I hear incest is quite popular in some parts, but it's still wrong to bang your siblings.

Pre-marital sex is tantamount to incest?  That's hilarious.

You argue that premarital sex is ok because its "normal". How would incest be any different if it was normal?

Did you know the average age of first marriage is 27?  Who is going to wait until they're 27 to have sex?  That's nuts. Sex and relationships are so important to being happy and having a good quality of life.  It's waaay too important to sacrifice at the altar of Taliban-like religious asceticism.

Indeed it is nuts. It's also completely irrrelevant to my point. Why is the median marriage age 27? In part because we are in a secular culture in which pre-marital sex is a given.  Ultra-Conservative Christians structure their lives differently. For example: the median marriage age in my congregation is about 21. Heck, my sister in law got married at 18.

As St. Paul said "But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." It's your culture that makes waiting until marriage difficult, not mine.

I think under 25 is usually too young to get married.  You don't generally have a solid job or your education completed, and you're not anywhere close to emotionally mature.  You also need to figure out what you need in a relationship and dating a number of people is important for that.  If you marry someone at 18, you're likely to make a mistake because you're woefully inexperienced in intimate relationships.  It's just better to date for a few years, have some experience before you take a step like that.  You don't want to have a failed marriage by 25 or 30, that's for sure.

Again, why are these cultural trends so? In part because pre-marital sex is easily accessible. There are paths out there in which men can support a family from a very young age, say 20 onwards.

Furthermore, difficulty has vary little to do with morality. Indeed, if "it's haaaarrrrddd" is a legitimate cop-out, what are you to do when evil stares you in the face?

[DC Al Fine]

Liberal Protestantism has turned the world upside down. Who would've thought 100 years ago that someone like me would agree with Catholics more than I would with a Congregationalist

[DC Al Fine]

Liberal Protestantism has turned the world upside down. Who would've thought 100 years ago that someone like me would agree with Catholics more than I would with a Congregationalist

DC, in france protestants have always been more liberalthan ccatholic. In 1905 it was them who lobbied for the separation of church and state

That's true, but I was talking about theology not not politics.

[DC Al Fine]

It depends on what caused the first relationship to collapse, Scott.  If it was because of lust for another, then yes.  If it collapsed for other reasons, then no.

I'm not sure I follow. Given your common-law definition of marriage, leaving such a relationship seems like it would violate Jesus' teachings on divorce.