Ben Carson - Poverty is a state of mind !

[Shadows]

HUD secretary Ben Carson: Poverty is largely 'a state of mind'


"I think poverty to a large extent is also a state of mind. You take somebody that has the right mindset, you can take everything from them and put them on the street, and I guarantee in a little while they'll be right back up there. And you take somebody with the wrong mindset, you could give them everything in the world, they'll work their way right back down to the bottom."

"A lot of it has to do with what we teach children," he said. "You have to instill into that child the mindset of a winner." He went to say that "there's also a poverty of spirit. You develop a certain mindset."

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/24/politics/ben-carson-poverty-state-of-mind/

[SoLongAtlas]

States of mind have very little to do with it. Making families better off in terms of socio-economics and education -> opportunity does. Very few people in this country will be startup masters or tech millionaires.

[This account no longer in use.]

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[SoLongAtlas]

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Sad state of the GOP today and why I no longer am one. Either you become rich, have the means, or else f off, I've got mine, to heck with the poor and the rest. $$$ It's a disgusting return to Gilded Age politics.

[dead0man]

I've known poor people.  He's not wrong.


Obviously it's not true for every poor person, but those people usually aren't poor for long.

[SoLongAtlas]

I've known poor people.  He's not wrong.


Obviously it's not true for every poor person, but those people usually aren't poor for long.

With vast automation and extremely selective job acceptance rates tied to Master's, etc. this will not be possible for long, only in spurts. The next few decades will be pretty rough in this arena.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

To some extent, of course.

[Famous Mortimer]

Poor people are often partially responsible for their state of affairs but only partially. I doubt very many people could work their way up from literal homelessness.

[ApatheticAustrian]

poverts is a state of mind TOO....resulting from poverty of falling into poverty.

[pbrower2a]

Considering that many jobs pay less than a living wage, and that those are the jobs being produced and offered in greatest numbers...

To like the political order and economic system that we have, it helps to either be stupid enough to appreciate one's degraded role or to be born spectacularly rich. The manufacturing jobs that used to offer a solid income to people with a good work ethic but little formal education have largely vanished. The bureaucratic elites have established glass ceilings that strictly limit advancement to people who work in giant enterprises.

The Right might suggest entrepreneurialism and craftsmanship, but there is only so much potential when so few have so much control of income. As an example there is much excellent and expensive furniture being crafted in north-central Indiana and sold in tourist areas like Nappanee and Shipshewana... places that Chicago residents go to for excursions to get to rural America, completely outside of commuting range of Chicago. Considering the prices, the excellent furniture (I wish that I could afford it!) it's easy to see that the buyers of it are largely rich people from greater Chicago.

Cheap labor is a poor market for small-scale entrepreneurialism. Poor people are the patrons of buy here/pay here car lots, check-cashing places, payday loan hustles, dollar stores, and rent-to-own emporia -- and of course Wal*Mart.    

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Prosperity gospel is a vile and viscous abomination upon the face of humanity, and those who preach it are utterly despicable.

[Storebought]

Like other people mentioned on this thread, Carson's assertion is, in a narrow sense, correct.

Without too much oversimplifying, poor kids are essentially brought up to obey commands, never question authority, and to expect physical violence (beatings from parents or police) if they dare act otherwise.

Even without the physical punishment, poor kids cannot expect anything beyond the ability of their parents/caregivers to provide -- things like school field trips are out of the question. In essence, parents (and teachers, too) prepare their kids with a mindset to subsist lifelong on scarcity and want.

The last big thing is time management -- poor people live day-by-day and can't, or don't know how, to prepare and fulfill long term goals. That's been said before on this forum, so I won't repeat the arguments, only to confirm them with my own experience (rich classmates in college already knew what their job titles would be after graduation -- here I thought college was a place to learn skills to even get a job in the first place. That's thinking like a poor person).

The single most important cause of poverty, however, is the permanent state of having no money and always being broke.

[Tancred]

Poverty tends to make long-term planning difficult and leads to bad decision-making. Some say it literally changes the way you think.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/

Carson's statement is only true for some people. Most poor people work and aren't drunks or drug addicts or lazy people. For most poor people the problem comes down to structural issues. Only so many people can obtain an education in an in-demand field or be a successful entrepreneur. It is pretty shameful that we have people who work hard but still cannot work their way out of poverty.

[RINO Tom]

Saying "Poverty is a state of mind" does not equate to "people who are in poverty have only their state of mind to blame."

[krazen1211]

Ben Carson was born in Detroit in poverty. Then he pulled himself up by the Bootstraps and became a neurosurgeon, and a Republican.

So I guess I can see why some folks might be triggered by his story?

[Hammy]

Ben Carson was born in Detroit in poverty. Then he pulled himself up by the Bootstraps and became a neurosurgeon, and a Republican.

So I guess I can see why some folks might be triggered by his story?

He received assistance though. The same assistance he's spoken out against more recently.

[pbrower2a]

Like other people mentioned on this thread, Carson's assertion is, in a narrow sense, correct.

Without too much oversimplifying, poor kids are essentially brought up to obey commands, never question authority, and to expect physical violence (beatings from parents or police) if they dare act otherwise.

That's a perfect ethos for an authoritarian order in which life is confusing at best and dangerous at worst. Feudalism? Communism? Fascism? Such ideologies are obsolete because they cannot create happiness except for economic elites.

There are commands that must not be obeyed. Some authority is fraudulent, Brutality is a poor way in which to get people to obey.   

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Poverty is demeaning -- and boring. The one outlet that the poor reliably have upon the rest of the world is the television, closely resembling in its purpose of entertaining but not informing and being beyond the control of the viewer, the shadow play in Plato's parable of the cave. Television has much the same function whether it is the dim-witted situation comedy, the 'talk' show in which some of the participants might start throwing chairs, 'professional' wrestling, of FoX News.

Field trips? Quality is of the essence.  Very poor kids might be shown a jail. Working-class kids might be shown a factory. Middle-class kids might get to see a college or an arboretum. 

We have enough productivity that scarcity and want can be nothing more than controls of the elites upon the people that they exploit. Paradoxically. the greater the advance of productivity and technology, the greater have been the cruelties of the Master Class in America.   

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Time management is essential to having any real independence and having a satisfying life. Who wants to be a drifter?  But all good habits must be enforced if they are to be cultivated or even maintained. Rewards work far better than does punishment.   

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If you think managing money is difficult, try managing its lack.

[Badger]

Ben Carson was born in Detroit in poverty. Then he pulled himself up by the Bootstraps and became a neurosurgeon, and a Republican.

So I guess I can see why some folks might be triggered by his story?

He received assistance though. The same assistance he's spoken out against more recently.

Funny how Krazen deliberately ignores the most obvious example in American politics of an African-American born in humble circumstances and who worked his way up to the literally highest level of success in the land by hard work and intellect. Yet HE didn't see that as license to say "F$%k you, I got mine" to the rest of the world.

What was that guy's name again, Krazen?

Answer, or you're a cowardly poltroon.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

For the record, I agree with Carson's statements only in a context that he did not likely think to specify. I simply say that it is self-evident that the permanent or seemingly-permanent lack of dependable, sustainable income--income that you can build upon--is going to change your way of thinking in a way that is perhaps not constructive to eventually escaping poverty. It may affect your willingness to address other aspects of your life and create a certain amount of short-sightedness. At the same time, if one maintained those habits even after a windfall of income, it is unlikely that they would stay wealthy. Now, does this mean that middle-class, "striver" spending habits are always the best? Sometimes, after all, you simply can't save. Does this mean that poverty is simply a mental function either? I disagree there as well. But we shouldn't deny the interplay of material circumstances and mental orientation that produces our reality.

[catographer]

States of mind have very little to do with it. Making families better off in terms of socio-economics and education -> opportunity does. Very few people in this country will be startup masters or tech millionaires.

Agreed. People can't just 'wish away' poverty, nor can they make all of the structural factors holding them back disappear. Certainly a different mindset can go along way, and some people have the personalities to do that more effectively than others. Also, working very hard and diligently can go a long way, but not for everyone and not always. It's harder I feel for people who grow up in poor communities than it is for immigrants, because immigrants needed to have the capital and connections to move her. Being capable and willing to move across the ocean to the US implies a capacity to move up the economic ladder. Being born and raised in poverty, and having family and friends in poverty, means there are no ladders for you to climb up on. Let's not forget too, generations of poverty become compounded, because wealth gets passed down. Best way to combat poverty is to invest in poor people, give them ladders of opportunity by improving their educational prospects and creating economic growth and development in their communities. Combating crime and drug problems will help a lot too. Ben Carson's policies will make poverty worse, by cutting off investments in poor communities and taking an approach that blames poor people for their own situation, and offers them no support what-so-ever. Carson's family at some points used food stamps and public education. Where would he be if he hadn't benefited from those? Also, where would he be if he had been arrested and served time for trying to stab his friend? Carson forgets all the help and luck that he has benefited from.

[catographer]

Poor people are often partially responsible for their state of affairs but only partially. I doubt very many people could work their way up from literal homelessness.

Also I don't blame people one second for getting into a mindset of despair and hopelessness, especially if they've been chronically poor or homeless. I would probably be depressed if I didn't have a roof over my head and food to eat every day.

[Badger]

I deal with the chronically poor on a more regular and closer basis than 99% of this Forum. Just a fact being a criminal defense/juvenile attorney whose majority of clients are still court-appointed. There's a consequence of bad decisions, yes. But the structural issues are at least as important. What's even more important than either though, and what Carson seems totally blind to, is the level of effect poverty has on the brain itself. He mixes up cause and effect in a way that's shameful for any good neurosurgeon.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/can-brain-science-pull-families-out-of-poverty/523479/

A small excerpt:

"When a person lives in poverty, a growing body of research suggests the limbic system is constantly sending fear and stress messages to the prefrontal cortex, which overloads its ability to solve problems, set goals, and complete tasks in the most efficient ways.

[catographer]

Ben Carson was born in Detroit in poverty. Then he pulled himself up by the Bootstraps and became a neurosurgeon, and a Republican.

So I guess I can see why some folks might be triggered by his story?

He received assistance though. The same assistance he's spoken out against more recently.

Funny how Krazen deliberately ignores the most obvious example in American politics of an African-American born in humble circumstances and who worked his way up to the literally highest level of success in the land by hard work and intellect. Yet HE didn't see that as license to say "F$%k you, I got mine" to the rest of the world.

What was that guy's name again, Krazen?

Answer, or you're a cowardly poltroon.

Obama decided to use his success to help others gain economic opportunity. Btw I don't think it's a mistake that most people who subscribe to Carson's thinking are also born wealthy and are out of touch with real poor people. It's easier to blame the poor for their lack of success when you are born rich and didn't work for it (think Trump, Romney, the children of the rich and famous, CEOs, etc.)