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StatesRights
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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2004, 01:19:16 am »
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No. In Sweden it's compulsory with seven or nine months of military training after high school, but I sort of avoided the draft. Told the psychologist I couldn't sleep in the same room as other people etc. I had better things to do.

That is your view and it is fair enough, if I lived in Sweden however I would certainly serve, I can't see why you wouldn't. Sweden hasn't had a war since the 19th century, early 19th century at that.

I must say I agree with StatesRights, it is rather sad that you have better things to do than serve your country like everyone else your age.

Yep. But most Swedish liberals and conservatives aren't very fond of their country, sadly.

And most don't serve anymore, since they don't need a lot of people. But I intend to do it.

Gustaf, I commend you and wish you luck when you do go. The military teaches good morals and principles to live by. Well, except those soldiers at that prison.
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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2004, 07:56:13 am »
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No. In Sweden it's compulsory with seven or nine months of military training after high school, but I sort of avoided the draft. Told the psychologist I couldn't sleep in the same room as other people etc. I had better things to do.

That is your view and it is fair enough, if I lived in Sweden however I would certainly serve, I can't see why you wouldn't. Sweden hasn't had a war since the 19th century, early 19th century at that.

I must say I agree with StatesRights, it is rather sad that you have better things to do than serve your country like everyone else your age.

Yep. But most Swedish liberals and conservatives aren't very fond of their country, sadly.

And most don't serve anymore, since they don't need a lot of people. But I intend to do it.

Gustaf, I commend you and wish you luck when you do go. The military teaches good morals and principles to live by. Well, except those soldiers at that prison.

Thanks. Smiley I think so to. Wars do horrible things to some people.

I remember my dad once told me that when he did his service there was this older sergeant or something that was one of their instructors. And my dad's commanding officer told them that this sergeant had served in the Winter War, fighting for the Finns against the Russians. Once they had to release some prisoners, they had no possibility of keeping them, for logistic reasons. So this guy got mad about it and systematically cut off the ears of each POW before letting them go.

According to my dad the sergeant in question was a kind and gentle man. These things happen in wars, sadly.  
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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2004, 01:00:33 pm »
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"War is hell" - William T. Sherman
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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2004, 06:48:49 pm »
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No. In Sweden it's compulsory with seven or nine months of military training after high school, but I sort of avoided the draft. Told the psychologist I couldn't sleep in the same room as other people etc. I had better things to do.

That is your view and it is fair enough, if I lived in Sweden however I would certainly serve, I can't see why you wouldn't. Sweden hasn't had a war since the 19th century, early 19th century at that.

I must say I agree with StatesRights, it is rather sad that you have better things to do than serve your country like everyone else your age.

Yep. But most Swedish liberals and conservatives aren't very fond of their country, sadly.

And most don't serve anymore, since they don't need a lot of people. But I intend to do it.

You have attacked my patriotism!! Noticed it three weeks to late, but anyway.

Avoiding the draft in Sweden has nothing to do with lack of patriotism. As you point out we haven't had a war since 1809 and we won't join one in the foreseeable future either since we are "neutral", not part of any military alliance. So military training in Sweden means basically nothing since the skills they learn you will never be used. At that time in my life, I wanted to get myself an education, not run around in the woods for nine months. I'm sorry I had to lie, but there was no other way. Today, I think it's voluntary to do the training since we're basically dismantling our military.

Secondly, we don't really have patriotism or nationalism in Sweden. We are probably one of the least nationalistic countries in the world. In one respect, that's good, since it means we don't have a huge problem with racism - at least officially - we are one of the few countries in Europe who don't have a populist/racist political party in the parliament.
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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2004, 07:02:25 pm »
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No. In Sweden it's compulsory with seven or nine months of military training after high school, but I sort of avoided the draft. Told the psychologist I couldn't sleep in the same room as other people etc. I had better things to do.

That is your view and it is fair enough, if I lived in Sweden however I would certainly serve, I can't see why you wouldn't. Sweden hasn't had a war since the 19th century, early 19th century at that.

I must say I agree with StatesRights, it is rather sad that you have better things to do than serve your country like everyone else your age.

Yep. But most Swedish liberals and conservatives aren't very fond of their country, sadly.

And most don't serve anymore, since they don't need a lot of people. But I intend to do it.

You have attacked my patriotism!! Noticed it three weeks to late, but anyway.

Avoiding the draft in Sweden has nothing to do with lack of patriotism. As you point out we haven't had a war since 1809 and we won't join one in the foreseeable future either since we are "neutral", not part of any military alliance. So military training in Sweden means basically nothing since the skills they learn you will never be used. At that time in my life, I wanted to get myself an education, not run around in the woods for nine months. I'm sorry I had to lie, but there was no other way. Today, I think it's voluntary to do the training since we're basically dismantling our military.

Secondly, we don't really have patriotism or nationalism in Sweden. We are probably one of the least nationalistic countries in the world. In one respect, that's good, since it means we don't have a huge problem with racism - at least officially - we are one of the few countries in Europe who don't have a populist/racist political party in the parliament.

I didn't think a Swedish liberal would be offended by being accused of not being a patriot, but I apologize if you were...it's a matter of principle, rather than whether we will actually have a war or not. Also, Swedish neutrality is obviously on its way out. Not through Nato-membership, sadly, but through the EU. It is certainly concievable that we might partake in more offensive operations, in places like Bosnia. Still, I can see your argument, I just think it's irrelevant to the principle.

On your 2nd point, it's true, but I don't see how it affect the issue at hand. It's pretty much what I said, I think. Though I agree on the positive effect yuo mention, it does mean that we get ignored in places such as the EU and also that we get less self-confident, which can be a bad thing. It's still better than being French though, I'm with you on that... Wink
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2004, 07:24:02 pm »
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I don't think it's a matter of principle, since no principle is involved. If it was possible to become a UN soldier or something I might have done it, but my test marks were too bad for that. So it only means running around in the woods for seven or nine months - not fruitful in any way, not to me, not to my country.

Yes, there are actually some bad things about being too "unpatriotic". At least about the hole "denationalized" neutrailty psychology that we have had for so long in this country. It makes people more narrow-minded in a way, sort of afraid of the outside world.
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« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2004, 12:22:04 pm »
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I don't think it's a matter of principle, since no principle is involved. If it was possible to become a UN soldier or something I might have done it, but my test marks were too bad for that. So it only means running around in the woods for seven or nine months - not fruitful in any way, not to me, not to my country.

Yes, there are actually some bad things about being too "unpatriotic". At least about the hole "denationalized" neutrailty psychology that we have had for so long in this country. It makes people more narrow-minded in a way, sort of afraid of the outside world.

The principle is pretty simple...if we want to enjoy what our country has to offer in terms of liberties, privelegies, a certain way of life, etc, we should be ready to defend those. If one isn't willing to do that one should move, IMHO. And there is no telling what might come, even if the risk of war is low right now. And I expect an EU-army to be up and running soon enough, which might change the likelihood of war for us.

On patriotism, the underlying problem is that we get too insecure. This harms our immigration policy, or more specifically the immigrants (perhaps not as much as our labour market, which effectively shuts them out, but that's another issue...) as well as our foreign policies. We are too timid to defend our own nation-state from dismantling which is sad.
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« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2004, 01:22:59 pm »
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I still don't think it's a matter of principle because there's no chance a situation will emerge in which we must 'defend our liberties' etc. At least not as soldiers in the Swedish army. When I "did the lump" Smiley it was pretty meaningless and I guess it still is. If it's possible to take part in an EU or UN army it's another thing.

As to patriotism, I'm not sure it would help the immigrants if we got more 'secure' of ourselves. Still, we don't have a racist party and thank God for that. And the hole EU-skepticism issue, hasn't that very much to do with people not being ready to dismantle the nation state or at least to adjust to new realities? It might be a question of 'welfare nationalism' - we are sort of afraid of the outside world because we still think our society is the best in the world.
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« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2004, 01:33:37 pm »
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I still don't think it's a matter of principle because there's no chance a situation will emerge in which we must 'defend our liberties' etc. At least not as soldiers in the Swedish army. When I "did the lump" Smiley it was pretty meaningless and I guess it still is. If it's possible to take part in an EU or UN army it's another thing.

As to patriotism, I'm not sure it would help the immigrants if we got more 'secure' of ourselves. Still, we don't have a racist party and thank God for that. And the hole EU-skepticism issue, hasn't that very much to do with people not being ready to dismantle the nation state or at least to adjust to new realities? It might be a question of 'welfare nationalism' - we are sort of afraid of the outside world because we still think our society is the best in the world.

Heh, that's what I'm talking about...since all Swedish liberals and conservatives know our society is the worse in the world... Tongue

It would make it easier for immigrants b/c it would be clearer to them what exactly they need to adapt to. Also, it might mean that we don't lock them up in ghettos the way we do now.

There was an element of nationalism, in a positive sense, in the Swedish EU-scepticism. However, we're too complacent a people to protest enoughwhen our independence gets infringed. The odds are fairly good that the nationstates of Europe will be seriously undermined in a few decades or so. I have no idea what new realities you're talking about...I don't think there are any trends right now that requires us to dismantle or infringe our soverigneity. Swedes aren't afraid of the out-side world, we are, as you yourself said, one of the least nationalist people in the world. And, yes, we don't have a racist party...we might get one eventually though, the way the established parties are acting they're really asking for it. In any normal, xenophobic country we'd have a thriving racist party by now... Wink
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« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2004, 01:44:14 pm »
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By new realities I mean that globalization requires global solutions - the nation state is getting too small. That's why I'm not very high on it. And I still think there's an element of fear in our relation to the outside world, seems like we don't want to take part of it, though it's not a question of nationalism or xenophobia... it has probably much to do with our long-time neutrality.
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« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2004, 01:50:25 pm »
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By new realities I mean that globalization requires global solutions - the nation state is getting too small. That's why I'm not very high on it. And I still think there's an element of fear in our relation to the outside world, seems like we don't want to take part of it, though it's not a question of nationalism or xenophobia... it has probably much to do with our long-time neutrality.

Only if we want to keep the state omnipotent...globalization is making us freer, a true liberalization. I don't want the politicians to ruin that. Secondly, cooperation does not have to equal creating bigger states. Unless we're gonna include the whole world we will still have to cooperate with other soverign states. Why not do so all the way?

Sweden is one of the most international countries in the world, and one of the least protective of our own national culture. I still can see no basis for that line of thinking. I view it as wishful thinking of the right, something must be wrong with the people since they never vote for us, sort of.
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« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2004, 01:58:07 pm »
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Only if we want to keep the state omnipotent...globalization is making us freer, a true liberalization. I don't want the politicians to ruin that. Secondly, cooperation does not have to equal creating bigger states. Unless we're gonna include the whole world we will still have to cooperate with other soverign states. Why not do so all the way?

Well, there are no other forums in which to cooperate with other countries, EU is a start...

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Sweden is one of the most international countries in the world, and one of the least protective of our own national culture. I still can see no basis for that line of thinking. I view it as wishful thinking of the right, something must be wrong with the people since they never vote for us, sort of.

You might be on to something there... but remember the people continue to vote for the social dems although they're ruining our democracy... so maybe the people really is to blame Wink
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« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2004, 02:01:00 pm »
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Only if we want to keep the state omnipotent...globalization is making us freer, a true liberalization. I don't want the politicians to ruin that. Secondly, cooperation does not have to equal creating bigger states. Unless we're gonna include the whole world we will still have to cooperate with other soverign states. Why not do so all the way?

Well, there are no other forums to cooperate with other countries, EU is a start...

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Sweden is one of the most international countries in the world, and one of the least protective of our own national culture. I still can see no basis for that line of thinking. I view it as wishful thinking of the right, something must be wrong with the people since they never vote for us, sort of.

You might be on to something there...

I strongly suspect the EU will work as a barrier against the rest of the world, with its protectionist agricultural policy and anti-Americanism, combined with nostalgic Euronationalism.

The former M-leader claimed for instance that the collectivist mentality, or something like that, in Sweden worked against his party. When the simple truth is not enough people are rich... Tongue
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« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2004, 02:14:25 pm »
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I strongly suspect the EU will work as a barrier against the rest of the world, with its protectionist agricultural policy and anti-Americanism, combined with nostalgic Euronationalism.

That I agree on. It's a big and legitimate objection. That's not the kind of EU I would like to have and I don't think it's the EU Folkpartiet wants either...

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The former M-leader claimed for instance that the collectivist mentality, or something like that, in Sweden worked against his party. When the simple truth is not enough people are rich... Tongue

I agree with Bosse Lundgren on this. We actually have a collectivist mentality in Sweden - mixed with a big portion of Jante's Law - as a result of our long-time social democratic hegemony. Take from the rich and give to the poor. Which has led Moderaterna to become an elitist party only interested in the interests of the rich - although that's changing with Fredrik Reinfeldt, and that's a good thing...
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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2004, 02:22:34 pm »
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I strongly suspect the EU will work as a barrier against the rest of the world, with its protectionist agricultural policy and anti-Americanism, combined with nostalgic Euronationalism.

That I agree on. It's a big and legitimate objection. That's not the kind of EU I would like to have and I don't think it's the EU Folkpartiet wants either...

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The former M-leader claimed for instance that the collectivist mentality, or something like that, in Sweden worked against his party. When the simple truth is not enough people are rich... Tongue

I agree with Bosse Lundgren on this. We actually have a collectivist mentality in Sweden - mixed with a big portion of Jante's Law - as a result of our long-time social democratic hegemony. Take from the rich and give to the poor. Which has led Moderaterna to become an elitist party only interested in the interests of the rich - although that's changing with Fredrik Reinfeldt, and that's a good thing...

On your first point, I am not so sure anymore...oldtimers such as Per Ahlmark certainly don't. But someone like Cecilia Malmström? I'm far from sure...the key issue is however preferece intensity, a term I learned from a libertarian friend of mine. It's not a matter of what you want, but in what order of preference. For FPers it's

1. Do whatever other European countries do

2. Keep the EU together

3. Centralize power

4. Remain friends with all the other liberals

5. Maintain our influence

etc, etc, etc, etc

999. Reform the EU in a liberal direction

The same goes for M, with people like Gunnar Hökmark posing as EU-sceptics.

--------------------------

On the 2nd point, there is somehting to it, but the main reason is rather that the right is, somewhat unfairly, viewed as incompetent and elitist. And the fact that it has been both of these things, to an extent. I agree that Reinfeldt is probably a step in the right direction. I strongly doubt that he will actually manage to win, but I guess everything is possible in politics. A true liberalization on Sweden still seems like a distant dream though...the real problem is the mentality that the state comes before the citizens.
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« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2004, 02:31:29 pm »
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Interesting point!

As to moderaterna... I'm not sure if he's able to win either although I'll move to another country if the social democrats get another four years... I would favor a merging of parties on the right-wing side since that might strengthen them.
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« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2004, 02:39:44 pm »
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Interesting point!

As to moderaterna... I'm not sure if he's able to win either although I'll move to another country if the social democrats get another four years... I would favor a merging of parties on the right-wing side since that might strengthen them.

Yeah...if the EU gets to worrisome I might do the same...move to an Anglo-Saxon country where politicians know their place. Wink

I think merging the right-winged parties and then changing to FPTP, like they have in the UK, could do wonders.
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« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2004, 06:27:19 pm »
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Likader and Gustaf have you two Swedes ever met?
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« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2004, 06:32:43 pm »
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All those Swedes look alike, are related, and know one another Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2004, 06:39:41 pm »
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All those Swedes look alike, are related, and know one another Smiley

Like folks from Tennessee and WVA and southern Ohio, huh? Wink
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« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2004, 07:09:35 pm »
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I have been toying with the idea of join the Officers Corps when I graduate college.  I don't know yet though.  I have some health problems that my keep me out.  I have almost flat feet which screws up all the rest of my joints.  I suffer from constant knee, hip, back and neck pain (though not all at once, different things hurt at different times).
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« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2004, 08:18:04 pm »
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I have been toying with the idea of join the Officers Corps when I graduate college.  I don't know yet though.  I have some health problems that my keep me out.  I have almost flat feet which screws up all the rest of my joints.  I suffer from constant knee, hip, back and neck pain (though not all at once, different things hurt at different times).


What service are you considering?

Possibly the Navy.  They might be the only ones who would take me.  But I get terribly seasick.  I got deathly ill crossing the channel from France to Britian and the was on a Hydrofoil (sp).
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« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2004, 09:35:23 am »
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I'm sorry if this pisses anybody off but why would we care if Swedes served? The last time I can remember Swedes serving in any real tough place is in Katanga a load of years ago. Even then their overlords were the UN.

Why would you care? I think you will have to answer that question yourself...why would we care? I think that's pretty obvious... Tongue

Sweden has not been actively participating in a war since 1814, that's true. But I don't see the relevance of that...we usually take part in UN-operations though. Such as Bosnia, for instance. Ever heard of von Rosen, btw? Wink
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« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2004, 12:08:57 pm »
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I'm a mite too fragile to serve. I don't meet height/weight requirements, no matter how much I gorge.

I intend to serve the USA in a different way: work for a munitions company when (if) I get a doctorate in nuclear chemistry these four years.

And at least the (cowards) who refuse to serve have that choice. Anyone who is in the military today volunteered for it, and so cannot "conscientiously object."
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