Dean04/Nixon68

[Vincent]

Many have called Howard Dean the George McGovern of 2004 for his anti-war campaign. However, Dean wants to keep troops in Iraq to clean up the mess we made. This stance can be compared to Richard Nixon's "Peace with honor" stance in 1968 to keep the U.S. in Vietnam untill the U.S. can make an honorable exit. Given this information it can be said that Dean's 2004 campaign is closer to Nixon's 68 than McGovern's 72.

Note: I am refering only to the issue of War and Peace.

[Demrepdan]

Only difference is.....almost EVERYONE knew that Vietnam was a BAAAD idea...especially after the Tet offensive in 1968.

Since everyone wasn't very pleased with the war...they wanted it to end...quickly...but yet where we didn't "lose". So they liked Nixon's "Peace with Honor".

Now with the Gulf War II, not EVERYONE is so strongly against. Many think that we did a GREAT deed by going over there. And Dean is strongly against the way we went into Iraq. So not so many people like Deans "We shouldn't have stuck our nose in Iraq" attitude.

To sum up....Vietnam..BAD...Nixon He'll fix things!....

Gulf War II...ehh...it's ok..it was a good deed....Dean...Crazy Liberal who doesn't know what he's talking about!

[NHPolitico]

Many have called Howard Dean the George McGovern of 2004 for his anti-war campaign. However, Dean wants to keep troops in Iraq to clean up the mess we made. This stance can be compared to Richard Nixon's "Peace with honor" stance in 1968 to keep the U.S. in Vietnam untill the U.S. can make an honorable exit. Given this information it can be said that Dean's 2004 campaign is closer to Nixon's 68 than McGovern's 72.

Note: I am refering only to the issue of War and Peace.

We can already claim some serious victories in Iraq.  Only fringe leftists view Iraq as a Vietnam quagmire.  That shifts the candidates' abilities to yelp about Iraq and take radical positions. I'm not sure that Dean wouldn't adopt a more radical position if things weren't going as well.

[jravnsbo]

The thing is though we WON the TET Offensive.  We kicked the living cr*p out of them but just the news reported we lost.

Can anyone really trust Dean with the nuclear codes after the rant he just had after IA?

Only difference is.....almost EVERYONE knew that Vietnam was a BAAAD idea...especially after the Tet offensive in 1968.

Since everyone wasn't very pleased with the war...they wanted it to end...quickly...but yet where we didn't "lose". So they liked Nixon's "Peace with Honor".

Now with the Gulf War II, not EVERYONE is so strongly against. Many think that we did a GREAT deed by going over there. And Dean is strongly against the way we went into Iraq. So not so many people like Deans "We shouldn't have stuck our nose in Iraq" attitude.

To sum up....Vietnam..BAD...Nixon He'll fix things!....

Gulf War II...ehh...it's ok..it was a good deed....Dean...Crazy Liberal who doesn't know what he's talking about!

[minionofmidas]

Then of course if you want to compare Vietnam and Iraq (and it certainly isn't a Vietnam style quagmire YET whatever the future will bring) the only election to compare 2004 to would be 1964 or even 1960. Certainly far more people now think Iraq to have been a bad idea than there were who thaught so about Vietnam back then?

[Wakie]

A few things ...

The Tet Offensive, despite the VC losing every battle, was a success because it scored a major psychological blow.  LBJ and American military leadership had insisted that the VC simply didn't have the resources or coordination to pull off something like Tet.  When they did it made people wonder what else was being lied about.  One of the advantages a force fighting in its own country against an outsider has is that you only need to convince the outsider that they cannot win (ie fight them to a draw).


Vietnam-Iraq comparisons are unfair.  They are vastly different.  Now it should be noted that Iraq has the potential to evolve into a Vietnam scenario, especially if it proves impossible to establish a viable Iraqi government.  If the death toll is over 1000 and the situation seems unchanged by the election then the war in Iraq could be a major negative to Bush.


Dean's speech on Monday night was silly, especially the part where he yelled "ahhh".  That being said, Howard Stern put it to the Rocky theme today and I must admit ... it sounded good.  In the grand scheme of things I think it will cost Dean some primary votes, but if he gets the nom it will be forgotten by the general election.

[Gustaf]

A few things ...

The Tet Offensive, despite the VC losing every battle, was a success because it scored a major psychological blow.  LBJ and American military leadership had insisted that the VC simply didn't have the resources or coordination to pull off something like Tet.  When they did it made people wonder what else was being lied about.  One of the advantages a force fighting in its own country against an outsider has is that you only need to convince the outsider that they cannot win (ie fight them to a draw).


Vietnam-Iraq comparisons are unfair.  They are vastly different.  Now it should be noted that Iraq has the potential to evolve into a Vietnam scenario, especially if it proves impossible to establish a viable Iraqi government.  If the death toll is over 1000 and the situation seems unchanged by the election then the war in Iraq could be a major negative to Bush.


Dean's speech on Monday night was silly, especially the part where he yelled "ahhh".  That being said, Howard Stern put it to the Rocky theme today and I must admit ... it sounded good.  In the grand scheme of things I think it will cost Dean some primary votes, but if he gets the nom it will be forgotten by the general election.

Good points Wakie, I've been trying to explain the psychological factors of a rebel movement to JR, but he doesn't agree with me.

Why don't you check out the voter registration thread in the Atlas Forum Fantasy elections, and sign up to help elect Nym90 president? You don't want the Reps to win yet another election, do you?

[Wakie]

I'm staying out of the fantasy elections.  It is too easy to rig them anyway.

The real ones are eating up way too much of my time as it is.

BTW, if you want to see a great movie about the issues of urban warfare and an insurgency movement against an outside occupying force check out "The Battle of Algiers".  It is a French film ... true story about the French occupation of Algiers.  Quite good really.

[Gustaf]

I'm staying out of the fantasy elections.  It is too easy to rig them anyway.

The real ones are eating up way too much of my time as it is.

BTW, if you want to see a great movie about the issues of urban warfare and an insurgency movement against an outside occupying force check out "The Battle of Algiers".  It is a French film ... true story about the French occupation of Algiers.  Quite good really.

I will. It's impossible to rig our election, and you have to do is register, and then vote at a later date. But if you don't want to, you don't have to, of course. There might be sour comments if we lose by a single vote or so, though...

[jravnsbo]

psychological blow int he US maybe.  My father was there fighting during the tet offensive and said we kicked the living cr*p out of them and wanted to pursue them further but were halted from orders above.

i do agree that vietnam and Iraq are completely different.  For one we are trying to win and did.  Next we were losing thousands a week in Vietnam, 500 while i don't want to diminish even one life, isn't that much for a war.  Far froma quagmire.

A few things ...

The Tet Offensive, despite the VC losing every battle, was a success because it scored a major psychological blow.  LBJ and American military leadership had insisted that the VC simply didn't have the resources or coordination to pull off something like Tet.  When they did it made people wonder what else was being lied about.  One of the advantages a force fighting in its own country against an outsider has is that you only need to convince the outsider that they cannot win (ie fight them to a draw).


Vietnam-Iraq comparisons are unfair.  They are vastly different.  Now it should be noted that Iraq has the potential to evolve into a Vietnam scenario, especially if it proves impossible to establish a viable Iraqi government.  If the death toll is over 1000 and the situation seems unchanged by the election then the war in Iraq could be a major negative to Bush.


Dean's speech on Monday night was silly, especially the part where he yelled "ahhh".  That being said, Howard Stern put it to the Rocky theme today and I must admit ... it sounded good.  In the grand scheme of things I think it will cost Dean some primary votes, but if he gets the nom it will be forgotten by the general election.