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| |-+  U.S. General Discussion (Moderators: True Federalist, Former Moderate, Badger)
| | |-+  Help ratify the Liberty Amendment!
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Poll
Question: Is this a good idea?
Yes   -18 (42.9%)
No   -24 (57.1%)
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Total Voters: 37

Author Topic: Help ratify the Liberty Amendment!  (Read 4818 times)
A18
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« on: September 22, 2004, 05:40:21 pm »
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http://www.libertyamendment.org/

Wyoming Texas Nevada Louisiana Georgia South Carolina Mississippi Arizona Indiana

Have all passed resolutions endorsing the amendment, though some were more recent than others. If your state isn't one of those, flood your state legislature's inbox. Smiley

Section 1. The Government of the United States shall not engage in any business, professional, commercial, financial or industrial enterprise except as specified in the Constitution.

Section 2. The constitution or laws of any State, or the laws of the United States shall not be subject to the terms of any foreign or domestic agreement which would abrogate this amendment.

Section 3. The activities of the United States Government which violate the intent and purpose of this amendment shall, within a period of three years from the date of the ratification of this amendment, be liquidated and the properties and facilities affected shall be sold.

Section 4. Three years after the ratification of this amendment the sixteenth article of amendments to the Constitution of the United States shall stand repealed and thereafter Congress shall not levy taxes on personal incomes, estates, and/or gifts.
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IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2004, 06:09:18 pm »
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I'll go for it. Smiley

Glad my state already endorses it.
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David S
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2004, 06:33:24 pm »
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Count me in. Smiley

PS And you were wondering why Libertarians like Ron Paul.
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A18
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2004, 07:45:59 pm »
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Who are the two people who voted no?
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A18
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2004, 08:54:37 pm »
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Make that who are the five.

Please post; I'm interested in hearing why.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2004, 09:01:46 pm »
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Please post; I'm interested in hearing why.

Because this idea sucks. That's why.
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Try this wonderful POPULIST BLOG...

http://onlinelunchpail.blogspot.com
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2004, 09:07:47 pm »
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Please post; I'm interested in hearing why.

Because this idea sucks. That's why.

You always have such an objective analysis on thing, how do you do it? Wink
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A18
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2004, 09:08:24 pm »
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Liberty sucks? Um, what?
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cwelsch
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2004, 09:25:46 pm »
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good idea; at LEAST a decade away from being plausible
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A18
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2004, 09:29:12 pm »
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I disagree. If Hastret can push a good tax reform bill through the House of Reps then there's the slight but real possiblity we could eliminate the income tax.

That would set the trend for this to pass, making it permanent and secure. Plus it would end any UN-type body. Smiley
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cwelsch
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2004, 09:40:09 pm »
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It would require massive spending cuts or a sales tax.  The government took in $793.7 bn from personal income taxes in 2003, $22bn from estate and gift taxes.  They're not going to just cut $800bn from the annual budget, they're going to need a new tax.
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A18
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2004, 10:02:15 pm »
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I know, a national sales tax. But that's far better than an income tax, because it isn't a violation of basic privacy rights and would abolish the IRS.

Plus, people would get sick of the sales tax and vote for people to lower them and make spending cuts.
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2004, 10:07:41 pm »
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I do not like the idea of a national sales tax because I think that it inordinately hurts the poor and middle class.  A gallon of milk costs the same amount for Bill Gates as it does Joe Blow.  I believe cutting wasteful spending and reforming the income tax is a better idea.
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A18
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2004, 10:09:24 pm »
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Not if we provided a national rebate up to the poverty spending level through the Social Security Administration.

If you look at lifetime income, it's about as progressive as the system is now.
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patrick1
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2004, 10:14:31 pm »
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Not if we provided a national rebate up to the poverty spending level through the Social Security Administration.

If you look at lifetime income, it's about as progressive as the system is now.

Shouldn't the idea be to get rid of bureaucracy.  A S.S.A. managing and rebating spending creates a bigger, more inefficient bureaucracy than the IRS.  Also, if we rebate only to the poverty level-The middle class gets screwed.  AGAIN
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A18
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2004, 10:26:23 pm »
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The middle class pays tax on everything it buys past poverty level spending, but everyone would get a rebate.

I don't claim to be a Social Security Administration expert, or even remotely aware of how it works, but as I understand it it's already set up to make payments.

I do understand that a flat tax (with some amount exempted) would be a much less radical transition. Perhaps the best thing to do is reform the income tax for now, work to cut wasteful spending, and then switch to a federal sales tax when it wouldn't have to be so high (probably about 15%).
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The Duke
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2004, 10:58:18 pm »
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Against.

This is a closet attempt to undo many social services.  The loose language allows for easy misuse.
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Shut you hole... Conservatism is dead. I hope I get to see your head paraded on a pike with it.
A18
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2004, 11:20:57 am »
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^^Government already releases a "cost of living" statistic each year. The rebate would be a flat rebate payed to everyone based on the cost of living statistic.

Over the course of one's lifetime, studies have shown that it would be about as progressive as the system is now.

If the rich save their money, they aren't benefiting from it, so who cares? If they do spend it, they get taxed 15% of the, say, billion dollar cost.
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2004, 02:58:41 pm »
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I don't see how depriving the government of basic powers of taxation and economic development has anything to do with liberty. I guess they though the word was catchy.

I cannot understand how the states get the hubris to act in such an insubordinate fashion to the federal government. Our system is based upon the supremacy of federal law, and our weakest moments (e.g. the Civil War) have happened when the states were too powerful. The inability to generate revenue would produce profligate deficits that could not possibly support the defense expansion the conservatives so desperately want. With regard to a national sales tax, the excess tax money going into the economy will likely cause inflation, and in the longer term discourage spending as prices rise. Getting rid of progressive federal income taxation would be a catastrophe.
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Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Left/Right: -10.00

Registered in Massachusetts as a Democrat for Fantasy Elections, though now living in Rome.
A18
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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2004, 03:19:30 pm »
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No PERSONAL income taxes. Not BUSINESS taxes.

Personal taxes are just double taxation anyway--one half is payed here, another there...but the same people pay it. It violates the 4th amendment, except for that 16th BS.

Our system is based on the supremacy of the states. The federal government is as an INSTITUTION supreme, but it derives its power from the states. If a state wishes to nullify the Constitution, it can. It just can't continue to be part of the union while doing so.

With regard to "sales taxes cause inflation" line, I suggest you think about that statement for a few minutes.

The "progressive" federal income tax is trash. Anyone who thinks its elimination would be a catastophe is un-patriotic and un-American. Please move to Europe where you'll fit in.

Liberty = Freedom
4th Amendment = Property Rights

Liberty + Property = American
Dependent + Pathetic = European

And no, I don't care about all these people who don't earn a living wage. You know, in other words, all the people LIVING who don't earn a living wage. It really is a hilarious concept.
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frenger
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2004, 04:20:45 pm »
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Dependent + Pathetic = European

I protest!
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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed and hence clamorous to be led to safety by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken



NO, I don't want to go back to Fantasy Elections.
A18
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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2004, 04:27:37 pm »
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I meant Socialist Europe, heh Smiley
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cwelsch
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2004, 07:10:02 pm »
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I would hope any genuine civil libertarian could separate political debate and free speech from "insubordination."  Christ, what a mini-fascist thing to say.  Acting like the states are pupils and the federal government is the principal.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 03:58:55 pm by cwelsch »Logged

Libertarians For Life my blog

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Platypus
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2004, 03:55:57 am »
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Cruddy idea. The worlds best nations have, and pretty much always have had, a federalised government. the US has only become the worlds' most dominant power after the federal govt. really took over the reigns.

Liberty has absolutely nothing to do with states rights, and I would happily vote against this bill if I was an american congressman.
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frenger
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2004, 11:55:28 am »
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Cruddy idea. The worlds best nations have, and pretty much always have had, a federalised government. the US has only become the worlds' most dominant power after the federal govt. really took over the reigns.


Those the are willing to give up an essential liberty in exchange for a little temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security.
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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed and hence clamorous to be led to safety by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken



NO, I don't want to go back to Fantasy Elections.
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