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Author Topic: Opinion on 1944 Warsaw Uprising  (Read 2735 times)
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Kalwejt
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« on: August 01, 2009, 01:13:58 pm »
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Regadring today 65th aniversary

For me it's fairly difficult topic, as many members of my family fought in the Uprising and some died.

I think we can only hail, praise and appreciate heroism and sacrifica of tousand of soldiers, but decision of Home Army command was wrong (destruction of whole city, deaths of well over 200.000 people). Slaughter of Polish youth made later more easy for Soviets to take over and in much degree broken a lives of whole generation. After all Soviet forces on the right bank of Visluta just stopped an offensive and watched until Uprising was put down after over 60 days of heavy fights.

Once again, I have a greatest respect possible for those who fight for their country, city and friends, but not to brainless commanders.
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2009, 03:17:33 pm »
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I can only salute the heroism of the fighters in the uprising, but as Kalwejt said, the decision to stage it was very questionable. Their reliance on the Red Army, considering the Home Army's attitude towards the Soviets, was a very poor strategic decision.
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2009, 10:10:49 pm »
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Regadring today 65th aniversary

For me it's fairly difficult topic, as many members of my family fought in the Uprising and some died.

I think we can only hail, praise and appreciate heroism and sacrifica of tousand of soldiers, but decision of Home Army command was wrong (destruction of whole city, deaths of well over 200.000 people). Slaughter of Polish youth made later more easy for Soviets to take over and in much degree broken a lives of whole generation. After all Soviet forces on the right bank of Visluta just stopped an offensive and watched until Uprising was put down after over 60 days of heavy fights.

Once again, I have a greatest respect possible for those who fight for their country, city and friends, but not to brainless commanders.

Far braver people than I could ever hope to be.  The same goes for the courageous Jews who fought back in 1943.

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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 02:01:50 am »
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It would have been more effective if the commanders weren't Polish. (Just Kidding)

But seriously, the people who fought in the uprisings in '43 and '44 were heroic for resisting a totalitarian government bent on their destruction.
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 06:00:16 am »
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When your back is against the wall it's better to fight until your elimination then to roll over like a dog.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 09:14:55 am »
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The major difference between Ghetto Uprising of 1943 and Warsaw Uprising in 1944:

Ghetto was just about destructed and Jews inside moved to death camps. They wanted al least to die with dignity, taking as many opressors with them as they only cound. In fact, Nazis were shocked not obly by Jewish courage, but also uprising organization ("How could they fight so brave and so effective?!").

Also, not less importantly, many Warsaw Jews, who would be dead in the camps, managed to escape and hided until end of the war.

So, this was absolutelly right thing to do.

Regarding, however, Warsaw Uprising, as Soviet forces were already at the right bank of Visluta and would kick of Germans withing a days or weeks. Soviet were certainly not nice, but in contrast to Nazis they were liberators.

Uprising was not any need. Without this, city would not be destroyed and so many people dead. After all, the Soviets just stopped and watched as Germans killS the Warsaw. Only then they entered. If we only could gave guarrante of their help, but nobody could be sure of that.

The saddest this is, of course, that all of those brave fighters died because of ambitions of stupid commanders.

By the way, sister of my grandfather was a nurse during uprising and she was killed in a mass execution at age of only 15.
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 09:54:20 am »
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Kwal,

Thanks for sharing your insights and your history.

Another thing people forget is the Polish contribution to the Allied war effort elsewhere in Europe.  I believe it was Poles who captured Monte Cassino in Italy?  Or perhaps they led the first assault -- I need to look it up. 
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 01:44:24 pm »
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Kwal,

Thanks for sharing your insights and your history.

Another thing people forget is the Polish contribution to the Allied war effort elsewhere in Europe.  I believe it was Poles who captured Monte Cassino in Italy?  Or perhaps they led the first assault -- I need to look it up. 

You're right about Monte Casino Smiley Yes, indeed Polish forces combined (in West, East and resistance at home) were fourth-largest Allied Army.

I never like to talk too much about historical achivements, because most of Polish politicians, instead of just working, mostly engage in such rethorics, sometimes in very nasty way Sad. But it's very nice to see somebody from diffrent after all part of the world who can appreciate this Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 03:10:52 pm »
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So what's worse - Poles rising only in order to be able to claim to have liberated themselves and not have been liberated by the Soviets?
Or Soviets allowing the Germans to slaughter the Poles in order that the Poles would not be able to make that claim?

Either's still preferrable to their joint opponent... whom my grandfathers fought for. Grin
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 03:40:45 pm »
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So what's worse - Poles rising only in order to be able to claim to have liberated themselves and not have been liberated by the Soviets?
Or Soviets allowing the Germans to slaughter the Poles in order that the Poles would not be able to make that claim?

Either's still preferrable to their joint opponent... whom my grandfathers fought for. Grin

Poles counted that due to Soviet advance they would be able to with joint forces quickly push Nazis out. Well, Soviet stopped and watched as their possible future political opponents get murdered by Germans.
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 05:43:49 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 12:21:25 am »
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Kwal,

Thanks for sharing your insights and your history.

Another thing people forget is the Polish contribution to the Allied war effort elsewhere in Europe.  I believe it was Poles who captured Monte Cassino in Italy?  Or perhaps they led the first assault -- I need to look it up. 

You're right about Monte Casino Smiley Yes, indeed Polish forces combined (in West, East and resistance at home) were fourth-largest Allied Army.

I never like to talk too much about historical achivements, because most of Polish politicians, instead of just working, mostly engage in such rethorics, sometimes in very nasty way Sad. But it's very nice to see somebody from diffrent after all part of the world who can appreciate this Smiley

That's one of my (many) soapboxes...the importance of honoring ALL the Allies.  We tend to hear only about Americans, Brits and Soviets.
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 11:58:58 pm »
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One of my professors was from Poland originally and had some interesting stories from his relatives who fought in it. The Germans were basically forced to fight house by house. They couldn't pacify one entire area, they'd have to invade each individual house to do so.
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 09:12:00 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?
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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2009, 05:35:59 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

If it werent for us, you'd be under the jackboot of Nazism.


Ingrate.
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2009, 05:41:32 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

Believe me, at time of the Battle of Britain, it really was
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2009, 05:57:13 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

Believe me, at time of the Battle of Britain, it really was

Oh yes !

And Polish and Czech pilots were more numerous than French ones...

Without de Gaulle, France would have been a great Slovakia, not more.
With de Gaulle, France managed to be a more important country at the end of WW2 than Poland whereas Polish took a bigger part, globally speaking, in the victory than French forces.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2009, 05:33:39 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

Believe me, at time of the Battle of Britain, it really was

Oh yes !

And Polish and Czech pilots were more numerous than French ones...

Without de Gaulle, France would have been a great Slovakia, not more.
With de Gaulle, France managed to be a more important country at the end of WW2 than Poland whereas Polish took a bigger part, globally speaking, in the victory than French forces.

That's only make de Gaulle a great and able statesman, but surely France was lucky, as was far from the Soviets.

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« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2009, 12:43:38 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

If it werent for us, you'd be under the jackboot of Nazism.


Ingrate.

And for you, we were enslaved for two centuries.

What have I to be grateful for? I would take the Emperor in Tokyo over the Emperor in London.
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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2009, 02:17:36 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

If it werent for us, you'd be under the jackboot of Nazism.


Ingrate.

And for you, we were enslaved for two centuries.

What have I to be grateful for? I would take the Emperor in Tokyo over the Emperor in London.

Getting thrown off a cliff, raped or having your child thrown in the air and caught with a bayonet is better then living under the King or Queen of England? Not hardly.
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2009, 02:34:16 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

If it werent for us, you'd be under the jackboot of Nazism.


Ingrate.

And for you, we were enslaved for two centuries.

What have I to be grateful for? I would take the Emperor in Tokyo over the Emperor in London.

Getting thrown off a cliff, raped or having your child thrown in the air and caught with a bayonet is better then living under the King or Queen of England? Not hardly.

Precisely, That wasn't better than life in the Empire; it was life in the Empire.
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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2009, 04:11:08 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

If it werent for us, you'd be under the jackboot of Nazism.


Ingrate.

And for you, we were enslaved for two centuries.

What have I to be grateful for? I would take the Emperor in Tokyo over the Emperor in London.

Getting thrown off a cliff, raped or having your child thrown in the air and caught with a bayonet is better then living under the King or Queen of England? Not hardly.

Precisely, That wasn't better than life in the Empire; it was life in the Empire.

Imperial Japan after 1930 was nearly as bad as Nazi Germany.
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Хahar
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2009, 05:12:14 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

If it werent for us, you'd be under the jackboot of Nazism.


Ingrate.

And for you, we were enslaved for two centuries.

What have I to be grateful for? I would take the Emperor in Tokyo over the Emperor in London.

Getting thrown off a cliff, raped or having your child thrown in the air and caught with a bayonet is better then living under the King or Queen of England? Not hardly.

Precisely, That wasn't better than life in the Empire; it was life in the Empire.

Imperial Japan after 1930 was nearly as bad as Nazi Germany.

But India was not part of Greater East Asia, so it doesn't matter.
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The idea of parodying the preceding Atlasian's postings is laughable, of course, but not for reasons one might expect.
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strangeland
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« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2009, 05:50:29 pm »
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I can't believe no-ones mentioned Poland's role in defending Britain yet.

Polish and Czech pilots were among the Few who battled Hitler to defend freedom. For this, they have my undying respect.

Perhaps your little island isn't the center of the world, eh?

If it werent for us, you'd be under the jackboot of Nazism.


Ingrate.

And for you, we were enslaved for two centuries.

What have I to be grateful for? I would take the Emperor in Tokyo over the Emperor in London.

Getting thrown off a cliff, raped or having your child thrown in the air and caught with a bayonet is better then living under the King or Queen of England? Not hardly.

Precisely, That wasn't better than life in the Empire; it was life in the Empire.

Imperial Japan after 1930 was nearly as bad as Nazi Germany.

But India was not part of Greater East Asia, so it doesn't matter.

If the Japanese had gotten to India, they would have behaved the same way there that they behaved in China, the Philippines, and Korea. Perhaps even worse if they didn't care about governing it after the war.
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2009, 07:24:48 pm »
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By the way. I just returned from a night visit in a sewers used by uprising soldiers and this was unique experience
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