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Author Topic: Born abroad  (Read 3791 times)
London Man
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« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2009, 03:15:05 pm »
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Avoiding foreign influence, OK. Considering Obama hardly knew his father, he didn't exactly have much "foreign influence".
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Luis Gonzalez
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« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2009, 04:10:51 pm »
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Avoiding foreign influence, OK. Considering Obama hardly knew his father, he didn't exactly have much "foreign influence".

So then, what do we know.

He was born a British subject, and then attended a Catholic School in Indonesia for several years, where he was registered as an Indonesian citizen named "Barry Soetoro" and his religion listed as "Muslim" (according to the school's records) by his mother's husband Lolo Soetoro, who may have adopted Barack Obama. The he transferred to a Madrassa, where he was a student until he age of ten.

There is speculation about "Barry's" possible Indonesian citizenship, since adoption by Lolo Soetoro prior to "Barry's" fifth birthday would have automatically made him an Indonesian citizen. That citizenship would explain his being allowed to enroll in an Indonesian public school.

Barack Obama's admission to having traveled to Pakistan while the nation was under military rule adds fuel to the citizenship question, since it was quite difficult to travel there with a US passport at that time, but far easier for someone holding Indonesian citizenship, and an Indonesian passport.

These questions could be easily settled, if not for the fact that his adoption records, along with his kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, his passport, medical records, files from his years as an Illinois state senator, and Illinois State Bar Association records, are all sealed.

Doesn't that set off an alarm in your head?
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“[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State’s right to economize when necessary …” The Ministry of Fear... by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165)
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« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2009, 04:14:58 pm »
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Doesn't that set off an alarm in your head?


The alarm that tells me your a lier?


Yes!
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London Man
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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2009, 04:18:46 pm »
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Avoiding foreign influence, OK. Considering Obama hardly knew his father, he didn't exactly have much "foreign influence".

So then, what do we know.

He was born a British subject, and then attended a Catholic School in Indonesia for several years, where he was registered as an Indonesian citizen named "Barry Soetoro" and his religion listed as "Muslim" (according to the school's records) by his mother's husband Lolo Soetoro, who may have adopted Barack Obama. The he transferred to a Madrassa, where he was a student until he age of ten.

There is speculation about "Barry's" possible Indonesian citizenship, since adoption by Lolo Soetoro prior to "Barry's" fifth birthday would have automatically made him an Indonesian citizen. That citizenship would explain his being allowed to enroll in an Indonesian public school.

Barack Obama's admission to having traveled to Pakistan while the nation was under military rule adds fuel to the citizenship question, since it was quite difficult to travel there with a US passport at that time, but far easier for someone holding Indonesian citizenship, and an Indonesian passport.

These questions could be easily settled, if not for the fact that his adoption records, along with his kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, his passport, medical records, files from his years as an Illinois state senator, and Illinois State Bar Association records, are all sealed.

Doesn't that set off an alarm in your head?

What does his Columbia thesis have to do with anything? Or his school records?

Yep, this is starting to set off an alarm in my head.

"Shut the gates! Troll coming!".
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2009, 04:27:26 pm »
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I don't quite understand why you're so obsessed with this.
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London Man
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2009, 04:32:22 pm »
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I don't quite understand why you're so obsessed with this.

Because some people can't accept when they've lost.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2009, 04:37:53 pm »
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I don't quite understand why you're so obsessed with this.

Because some people can't accept when they've lost.

Not a concept I understand. I'm a Sunderland fan.
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"I have become entangled in my own data, and my conclusion stands in direct contradiction to the initial idea from which I started. Proceeding from unlimited freedom, I end with unlimited despotism. I will add, however, that there can be no solution of the social formula except mine."
Luis Gonzalez
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« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2009, 09:52:30 pm »
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Doesn't that set off an alarm in your head?


The alarm that tells me your a lier?


Yes!

I didn't come here to exchange vitriol with spelling-challenged posters.

Have a nice day.
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“[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State’s right to economize when necessary …” The Ministry of Fear... by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165)
Luis Gonzalez
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« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »
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I don't quite understand why you're so obsessed with this.

You're not required to understand why I do anything, nor do I require your understanding in anything that I find interesting.

I find this a fascinating subject, or rather, I find this one of many fascinating subjects that I like to research. This controversy has legs, what it lacks is a right-wing Michael Moore to give it screen time.
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“[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State’s right to economize when necessary …” The Ministry of Fear... by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165)
Luis Gonzalez
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« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2009, 10:14:20 pm »
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You cannot be both a natural born citizen, and a British subject at birth.

Of course you can. British subjects are not British citizens. The terms are not the same.

You're British, or do you just live there?

Quote
British Nationality Act, 1948

1948 (11 & 12 Geo. 6.) CHAPTER 56.

Part II

Citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies.

Citizenship by birth or descent.

5.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth:

So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?
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“[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State’s right to economize when necessary …” The Ministry of Fear... by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165)
Luis Gonzalez
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« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2009, 10:15:53 pm »
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I don't quite understand why you're so obsessed with this.

Because some people can't accept when they've lost.

Then again, the argument can be made that if indeed a person who does not meet the Constitutional requirement for the Presidency won, we all lost.
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“[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State’s right to economize when necessary …” The Ministry of Fear... by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165)
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« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2009, 01:57:55 am »

So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

Because as I have previously pointed out, unlike the 18th century, the concept of dual citizenship is both well established and accepted today. The concept arose because unlike the 18th century, females today retain their original citizenship when they marry, instead of becoming a mere legal appendage of their husband.  The wording of both the XIVth and XIXth Amendments can be viewed as an implicit incorporation of the doctrine that females hold citizenship independent of any attachment to a male they may have into constitutional practice.
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London Man
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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2009, 04:05:45 am »
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You cannot be both a natural born citizen, and a British subject at birth.

Of course you can. British subjects are not British citizens. The terms are not the same.

You're British, or do you just live there?


The former. I don't think the 1948 Act is the one you should be referring to. There have been several later acts.
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Хahar
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« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2009, 03:10:43 pm »
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So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

In the same way that I am a natural-born citizen and a Bangladeshi citizen at birth.
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« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2009, 03:15:01 pm »
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So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

In the same way that I am a natural-born citizen and a Bangladeshi German citizen at birth.
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Luis Gonzalez
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« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2009, 03:59:33 pm »
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So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

In the same way that I am a natural-born citizen and a Bangladeshi citizen at birth.

You may think that you are, but that's not necessarily the case.
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“[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State’s right to economize when necessary …” The Ministry of Fear... by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165)
Хahar
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« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2009, 04:46:46 pm »
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So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

In the same way that I am a natural-born citizen and a Bangladeshi citizen at birth.

You may think that you are, but that's not necessarily the case.

Natural-born citizen means citizen at birth. As I was born in the United States, I was a citizen at birth, and hence natural-born.
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« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2009, 06:13:05 pm »
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My last post on the subject...

People wish to equate being born a citizen, or even gaining citizenship via being born on US soil (both instances of citizenship at birth) with the term "natural born citizen" found in the Constitution.

If "natural born" is defined as citizenship at birth, then the XIV Amendment recognizes the rights of naturalized citizens to become President of the United States, since it guarantees them every privilege and immunity held by persons who are born citizens.

The only counter to that argument, is to introduce the notion of citizenship by birthright, and defining "natural born citizen" as a son/daughter of citizen parents. 

Do that, and we run smack into the prevailing definition at the time that the Constitution was written...Vattel. Then the argument boils down to whether that annoying "s" is there or not.
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“[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State’s right to economize when necessary …” The Ministry of Fear... by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165)
Luis Gonzalez
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« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2009, 06:14:10 pm »
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So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

In the same way that I am a natural-born citizen and a Bangladeshi citizen at birth.

You may think that you are, but that's not necessarily the case.

Natural-born citizen means citizen at birth. As I was born in the United States, I was a citizen at birth, and hence natural-born.

So, according to you, an illegal alien's anchor baby can be President.

Nice.
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“[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State’s right to economize when necessary …” The Ministry of Fear... by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165)
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« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2009, 06:27:02 pm »
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So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

In the same way that I am a natural-born citizen and a Bangladeshi citizen at birth.

You may think that you are, but that's not necessarily the case.

Natural-born citizen means citizen at birth. As I was born in the United States, I was a citizen at birth, and hence natural-born.

So, according to you, an illegal alien's anchor baby can be President.

Nice.
Yes. Duh.
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Хahar
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« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2009, 07:25:25 pm »
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If "natural born" is defined as citizenship at birth, then the XIV Amendment recognizes the rights of naturalized citizens to become President of the United States, since it guarantees them every privilege and immunity held by persons who are born citizens.

Point me to where it says this.

So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

In the same way that I am a natural-born citizen and a Bangladeshi citizen at birth.

You may think that you are, but that's not necessarily the case.

Natural-born citizen means citizen at birth. As I was born in the United States, I was a citizen at birth, and hence natural-born.

So, according to you, an illegal alien's anchor baby can be President.

Nice.

Whether it's "nice" or not is irrelevant. It's what the Constitution says.
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« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2009, 05:17:40 pm »
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So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

In the same way that I am a natural-born citizen and a Bangladeshi citizen at birth.

You may think that you are, but that's not necessarily the case.

Natural-born citizen means citizen at birth. As I was born in the United States, I was a citizen at birth, and hence natural-born.

So, according to you, an illegal alien's anchor baby can be President.

Nice.

Yes, it is nice. One of the few areas where the United States isn't hopelessly backwards.
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Luis Gonzalez
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« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2009, 06:09:12 pm »
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If "natural born" is defined as citizenship at birth, then the XIV Amendment recognizes the rights of naturalized citizens to become President of the United States, since it guarantees them every privilege and immunity held by persons who are born citizens.

Point me to where it says this.

So the question now becomes, how can Obama be both a natural born citizen, and a British citizen at birth?

In the same way that I am a natural-born citizen and a Bangladeshi citizen at birth.

You may think that you are, but that's not necessarily the case.

Natural-born citizen means citizen at birth. As I was born in the United States, I was a citizen at birth, and hence natural-born.

So, according to you, an illegal alien's anchor baby can be President.

Nice.

Whether it's "nice" or not is irrelevant. It's what the Constitution says.

Where?
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“[Euthanasia] is what any State medical service has sooner or later got to face. If you are going to be kept alive in institutions run by and paid for by the State, you must accept the State’s right to economize when necessary …” The Ministry of Fear... by Graham Green (New York: Penguin Books [1943] 2005, p. 165)
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« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2009, 01:27:14 pm »
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Are you trying to argue that to become POTUS, not only must a person be born in the US (given), but their parents must have as well?  Even if such an argument were to hold up in court (and you'd think that such a case might have been attempted by now), that's a needlessly high bar to have to jump.
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« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2009, 01:31:11 pm »
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What would be wrong with an illegal immigrant's anchor baby being President anyway? Is it impossible for someone born under such circumstances to grow up to be a very productive member of society?
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