Another WW 2 Question My Fellow Armchair Historians...

[JSojourner]

Is there any good reading material on the Nazi plan for "undesirables" in...

A).  Countries they had yet to conquer
B).  Neutral countries
C).  Allied or associated nations

If, and I shudder to think of it, Hitler had succeeded in the USSR...maybe developed atomic weapons...or otherwise gained a decisive upper hand, I wonder if plans were already on the books for the Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Communists and other enemies of the state in places like Sweden, Ireland, Palestine, etc.  For the most part, if I understand correctly (and I may not), even Bulgaria and Finland were less than cooperative with the Nazi final solution.  Were there plans to rectify this eventually?

I wonder.  Would Europeans or American/British/Canadian/French POWS of Jewish or African heritage have eventually been gassed or otherwise disposed of?

[dead0man]

Worst case scenario, it would have sucked to been a Jew anywhere in the first or second world.  If they could have kept the ovens running, they would have kept the ovens running.

[JSojourner]

Worst case scenario, it would have sucked to been a Jew anywhere in the first or second world.  If they could have kept the ovens running, they would have kept the ovens running.

I know, Dead.  But I wondered if the Nazis gave any thought to how they might dismantle certain power structures that would protect Jews or other minorities.  They found willing collaborators in France, Poland, the Ukraine and other parts of Europe.  (Yes, there were exceptions.) But in places like Bulgaria, Denmark, Finland and even Italy...there seemed to be a more stubborn resistance to deportation.  Not just of Jews but of other "undesireables" as defined by the Nazis.

You hear once in awhile about "Hitler's plan for America" or for Persia or whatever...but it's usually a military blueprint.  Since the actual conquests of the Nazis were planned beyond military details (including roundups of "enemies")...I'm just curious if much thought was given along these lines.

[Sibboleth]

You need to understand that the Nazis didn't really do plans.

[Χahar]

You need to understand that the Nazis didn't really do plans.

Lake Moscow?

[afleitch]

The Nazi's certainly had, a now well known 'hit list' of politicians, playrights, thinkers, trade unionists etc in the British system that would be 'liquidated' though some of the supposed connections to justify some names contained within the list are amusing.

[afleitch]

This from The Times is fun

ARTHUR DONALDSON, the former SNP leader, planned to set up a Vichy-style regime in Scotland in the event of a Nazi invasion, according to a newly released MI5 file.
Donaldson intended to infiltrate the party with Nazi sympathisers, who would undermine the British war effort by carrying out acts of sabotage and spreading misinformation.

Following a widely anticipated invasion by Hitler’s forces, the Nationalist leader hoped to establish himself as a “Scottish quisling” in charge of a puppet government.

Donaldson, who led the party from 1960 to 1969, was arrested in 1941 and was held for five weeks at Barlinnie. His internment became a cause celebre among Nationalists, who believed that it was prompted by his campaign against conscription. Donaldson was eventually released and the case against him was dropped.

However, the MI5 file released by the National Archives in London last week reveals the findings of the secret service investigation that led to his arrest and the political fall-out that followed his release.

Donaldson, who had been thrown out of the SNP in 1940 because of his extreme nationalist views, founded his own independence party, United Scotland, and was on the executive committee of the anti-war Nationalist Mutual Aid Society, which helped people to escape national service by fleeing to the Highlands.

He was one of several Nationalists who were targeted by the British secret service as enemies of the state.

One of his closest confidants was an MI5 agent who reported his plans to one of the senior officers, Lieutenant Colonel Dick Brooman-White.

In January 1941 Donaldson told the informant that he already had many supporters in place within the SNP. He also told the agent that he believed the widely anticipated German invasion of England would be a success.

“The government would leave the country and England’s position would be absolutely hopeless, as poverty and famine would be their only reward for declaring war on Germany. Scotland, on the other hand, had great possibilities,” Donaldson told the agent.

“The movement in Scotland must then be able to show the German government that it is organised and has a clear-cut policy, that it is not with England in the war. The German government will give them every possible assistance in their early struggle, and when fire and confusion is at its height in England the movement can start in earnest.”

The report adds: “The important allegations are that he contemplates when an invasion occurs using the party for spreading confusion by false reports and minor acts of sabotage, and is in fact now endeavouring to start a whispering campaign to spread rumours, particularly of shipping losses.”

Brooman-White concluded that Donaldson planned to set up a Scottish government modelled on that of Vidkun Quisling, who led a puppet government in Norway following the Nazi invasion.

“I think there is little doubt that Donaldson envisaged himself in the role of a Scottish Quisling and you may agree that this view is born out by all our evidence of his outlook and activities,” wrote Brooman-White.

This persuaded Lord Rosebery, the regional commissioner for Scotland, backed by Thomas Cooper, the lord advocate, to order Donaldson’s arrest. He was taken to Barlinnie prison but it quickly became apparent that MI5 was not prepared to jeopardise its agent by producing him or her to give evidence if Donaldson appealed.

On June 11 Thomas Johnston, the Scottish secretary of state, ordered his release. Rosebery was furious that his decision had been overturned and protested to Herbert Morrison, the home secretary.

“I signed this order as your nominee,” he wrote. “It is a very difficult matter when the regional commissioner for Scotland interns a man one week and the secretary of state for Scotland releases him the next. That is not understandable and will be looked upon as a reflection upon myself. It puts me in an intolerable position.”

Donaldson was born in Dundee in 1901. He worked as a journalist in the city before emigrating to America, aged 21. It was there that he met his wife Vi, the daughter of a scrap metal dealer in Forfar. They returned to Scotland in 1936.

A superb orator, he joined the National party of Scotland in 1928, which became the SNP four years later.

He replaced James Halliday as national chairman in l960 and, during his nine-year leadership, transformed a fringe grouping into a mainstream party.

Although the identity of MI5’s informant is not revealed in the newly released Home Office documents, speculation has centred on a fellow member of the SNP.

[JSojourner]

You need to understand that the Nazis didn't really do plans.

I think just the opposite is true. They were nothing, if not meticulous.  As to how far our their plans went, well...that sort of is my question.  Along with, "how detailed and specific did those plans get?"

[Sibboleth]

I think just the opposite is true. They were nothing, if not meticulous.

That's certainly a common view - reinforced by mountains of popular history after the War - but doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Long-term aims and ideological goals, yes, but not and never careful planning. Instead, you had opportunism, reaction to changing circumstances and "working towards the Führer", to say nothing of the decisions taken as a result of the utter chaos of institutions and responsibilities.

[JohnFKennedy]

The one notable exception being Hitler and Speer's plans to transform Berlin into Germania and all the associated ridiculous architecture. I believe those plans were quite carefully made up, although they were never particularly realistic - I guess that fits more under long-term aims.

[London Man]

Hitler planned for the Nazis to take over the world, but didn't think he'd live long enough to see it.

[Vasall des Midas]

Events moved much too fast for longterm plans, even had they existed, to be relevant.