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Author Topic: Reasonable Minimum Wage Bill (Law'd)  (Read 8836 times)
afleitch
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2009, 03:44:11 pm »
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This is a good bill.  We need to ensure that the working class is being paid enough to reasonably live on.  I support this 100%.

But we also need to protect small businesses that may not be able to afford these types of hourly wages in such dire economic times.

Yes, I agree with that, which is also why a small tax cut on small business might also be in order.

We don't have the capacity to do that. Otherwise we could bypass the whole issue regarding small businesses and cut taxes for the lowest incomes like afleitch attempted (which most of us didn't support, and I still won't).

There are also tax cuts affecting small businesses already in effect due to the stimulus bill. The fact that people want to introduce these measures piecemeal and somewhat timidly shows that there are concerns over its effect at a time of economic crisis and possible recovery.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 03:48:10 pm by afleitch »Logged
afleitch
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2009, 03:55:24 pm »
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Therefore

Reasonable Minimum Wage Act

1. A federal minimum wage of $7.25 shall be established by the end of 2009, which shall be increased to $8.50 by the end of 2010.

2. After 2010, the minimum wage shall be indexed to the rate of wage inflation, as measured by the Employment Cost Index (ECI). In periods of wage deflation as measured by the ECI, the minimum wage will be frozen.

3. Any employer found to be paying any of his employees below the minimum wage shall be sentenced to a fine of up to $20,000.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 04:49:20 pm by afleitch »Logged
Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2009, 03:59:10 pm »
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Wow, opposed wholeheartedly. The only decent thing there is the first change.
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afleitch
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2009, 04:01:20 pm »
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Wow, opposed wholeheartedly. The only decent thing there is the first change.

What's wrong with linking the minimum wage to wages?
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2009, 04:01:53 pm »
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Wow, opposed wholeheartedly. The only decent thing there is the first change.

What's wrong with linking the minimum wage to wages?

He didn't think of it first.
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« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2009, 04:03:15 pm »
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"As wages can be cut in lean times, so too can the minimum wage."

I absolutely, wholeheartedly, completely, 100%, without exception oppose a system where the minimum wage can drop.

Wow, opposed wholeheartedly. The only decent thing there is the first change.

What's wrong with linking the minimum wage to wages?

He didn't think of it first.

Oh would you please go away. I have enough to deal with today without you involved.
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Franzl
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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2009, 04:06:43 pm »
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I think attaching it to the wage inflation is actually pretty fair.

How about a compromise like U.S. social security checks are run?

Let's tie the minimum wage to "wage inflation", but only if that number is equal or greater than 0, otherwise, it just stays the same.
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afleitch
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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2009, 04:08:17 pm »
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"As wages can be cut in lean times, so too can the minimum wage."

I absolutely, wholeheartedly, completely, 100%, without exception oppose a system where the minimum wage can drop.


Why not? If there were 3 years of wage deflation, should the minimum wage rise for those three years? It's a bit of kick in the gut for those who earn not far above the minimum wage and see their wages drop. Besides if they fall for one year, if there is wage growth the next year the minimum wage goes back up.

The minimum wage cannot keep increasing regardless of what else is happening in the economy and with comparitive wages.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2009, 04:09:02 pm »
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Wow, opposed wholeheartedly. The only decent thing there is the first change.

What's wrong with linking the minimum wage to wages?

He didn't think of it first.
Comments like these aren't needed on the Senate floor. You made no points, and you are only trying to pester and anger other Senators. =/
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2009, 04:10:56 pm »
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I think attaching it to the wage inflation is actually pretty fair.

How about a compromise like U.S. social security checks are run?

Let's tie the minimum wage to "wage inflation", but only if that number is equal or greater than 0, otherwise, it just stays the same.

Whichever way we tie it to inflation is fine, as long as we prevent it from flying along with the winds of the economy, essentially ruining the point of a minimum wage.

I still oppose the amendment, however. Wage violations are very serious to me, I won't be a part of an attempt to let wage laws go only lightly punished.

"As wages can be cut in lean times, so too can the minimum wage."

I absolutely, wholeheartedly, completely, 100%, without exception oppose a system where the minimum wage can drop.


Why not? If there were 3 years of wage deflation, should the minimum wage rise for those three years? It's a bit of kick in the gut for those who earn not far above the minimum wage and see their wages drop. Besides if they fall for one year, if there is wage growth the next year the minimum wage goes back up.

The minimum wage cannot keep increasing regardless of what else is happening in the economy and with comparitive wages.

It could simply stay the same.

I seriously wonder about your definition of the word "minimum" (which, to me, implies some sort of floor) if your idea of a minimum wage is one that floats back and forth. It completely destroys the purpose of a wage minimum if that minimum isn't solid.
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afleitch
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« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2009, 04:19:04 pm »
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I seriously wonder about your definition of the word "minimum" (which, to me, implies some sort of floor) if your idea of a minimum wage is one that floats back and forth. It completely destroys the purpose of a wage minimum if that minimum isn't solid.

The minimum wage will be solid in the manner that you cannot pay someone anything below it.

Do you know what happens if we have say several years of wage deflation and the minimum wage keeps going up? Employers who employ people cents, or a dollar above that start to bring their workers wages down to meet the minimum wage. Low wages start to 'back up' against the minimum wage increasing the number of workers who are paid the very minimum (rather than just above it) It leads to people with different roles and skills who would usually be paid a different wage being paid the same, so the more skilled worker is shortchanged or finds that they get the same money for doing less and their employer is willing to let that happen therefore reducing skills.

The minimum wage cannot operate in a vacuum in comparison to everyone else in the workplace.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2009, 04:21:19 pm »
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I think attaching it to the wage inflation is actually pretty fair.

How about a compromise like U.S. social security checks are run?

Let's tie the minimum wage to "wage inflation", but only if that number is equal or greater than 0, otherwise, it just stays the same.


I would tend to support this idea. As I told Marokai via PM I won't support a minimum wage that falls during deflationary times.
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afleitch
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« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2009, 04:23:56 pm »
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I think attaching it to the wage inflation is actually pretty fair.

How about a compromise like U.S. social security checks are run?

Let's tie the minimum wage to "wage inflation", but only if that number is equal or greater than 0, otherwise, it just stays the same.


I would tend to support this idea. As I told Marokai via PM I won't support a minimum wage that falls during deflationary times.

I would also support that by way of a compromise.

EDIT: I have amended the amendment Tongue
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 04:27:23 pm by afleitch »Logged
Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2009, 04:34:04 pm »
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I think attaching it to the wage inflation is actually pretty fair.

How about a compromise like U.S. social security checks are run?

Let's tie the minimum wage to "wage inflation", but only if that number is equal or greater than 0, otherwise, it just stays the same.


I would tend to support this idea. As I told Marokai via PM I won't support a minimum wage that falls during deflationary times.

I would also support that by way of a compromise.

EDIT: I have amended the amendment Tongue

I still wish that penalties against wage violations were more harsh, but we can work on that.

Would everyone be fine with eliminating Clause 2, though? I regret writing that, and I know at least one or two others have voiced objections to me privately about it.
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Rowan
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« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2009, 04:36:41 pm »
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Yeah, clause 2 can go.
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afleitch
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« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2009, 04:37:28 pm »
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I still wish that penalties against wage violations were more harsh, but we can work on that.

Would everyone be fine with eliminating Clause 2, though? I regret writing that, and I know at least one or two others have voiced objections to me privately about it.

In what manner were the objections may I ask?
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MaxQue
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« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2009, 04:38:01 pm »
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I think attaching it to the wage inflation is actually pretty fair.

How about a compromise like U.S. social security checks are run?

Let's tie the minimum wage to "wage inflation", but only if that number is equal or greater than 0, otherwise, it just stays the same.


I would tend to support this idea. As I told Marokai via PM I won't support a minimum wage that falls during deflationary times.

I would also support that by way of a compromise.

EDIT: I have amended the amendment Tongue

I still wish that penalties against wage violations were more harsh, but we can work on that.

Would everyone be fine with eliminating Clause 2, though? I regret writing that, and I know at least one or two others have voiced objections to me privately about it.

Yes, I would have proposed it anyways after that amendment.
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Franzl
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« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2009, 04:41:44 pm »
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I still wish that penalties against wage violations were more harsh, but we can work on that.

Would everyone be fine with eliminating Clause 2, though? I regret writing that, and I know at least one or two others have voiced objections to me privately about it.

In what manner were the objections may I ask?

I objected actually. I don't see why someone under 18 should be paid less for exactly the same work. Potential complications as a result might even be employers specifically attempting to employ teenagers solely for economic reasons.

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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2009, 04:43:15 pm »
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So afleitch, if you amend your amendment again to remove Clause 2 I'll accept it as friendly and we can move on to another issue. Tongue
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afleitch
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« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2009, 04:49:54 pm »
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So afleitch, if you amend your amendment again to remove Clause 2 I'll accept it as friendly and we can move on to another issue. Tongue

Done.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2009, 04:50:32 pm »
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Therefore

Reasonable Minimum Wage Act

1. A federal minimum wage of $7.25 shall be established by the end of 2009, which shall be increased to $8.50 by the end of 2010.

2. After 2010, the minimum wage shall be indexed to the rate of wage inflation, as measured by the Employment Cost Index (ECI). In periods of wage deflation as measured by the ECI, the minimum wage will be frozen.

3. Any employer found to be paying any of his employees below the minimum wage shall be sentenced to a fine of up to $20,000.

Accepted as friendly!
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Bacon King
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« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2009, 05:21:31 pm »
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Senators have 24 hours to object.
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Rowan
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« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2009, 05:25:03 pm »
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I still think the $8.50 number will cripple small businesses.
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IDS Judicial Overlord PiT
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« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2009, 06:35:44 pm »
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     Freezing the minimum wage in times of deflation might backfire if the economy deflates enough. I don't know enough about the effects of Hoover's policies in the Great Depression to be sure about this, though.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2009, 08:18:58 pm »
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Senators have 24 hours to object.

And, it has passed.
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