Reasonable Minimum Wage Bill (Law'd)

[afleitch]

I'll need to think about this one

[afleitch]

As for the idea that wages reduce output and increase unemployment, this may have some hint of truth to it in the short term, but we would benefit in the long run. With all the stimulus money going to benefit individuals and give businesses a break, there's no better time to institute a minimum wage than now.

It may, therefore be better not to introduce rises incrementally, The cost in adjusting, monitoring and taxing appropriately wages every 4 months would have to be met by the state and by each business. I can understand why (as it makes it cheaper during the downturn, to introduce) but it's staggered over some 20 months. It may be better to simply stagger it over say 18 or 24 months but in two increments, rather than 5.

[afleitch]

As for the idea that wages reduce output and increase unemployment, this may have some hint of truth to it in the short term, but we would benefit in the long run. With all the stimulus money going to benefit individuals and give businesses a break, there's no better time to institute a minimum wage than now.

It may, therefore be better not to introduce rises incrementally, The cost in adjusting, monitoring and taxing appropriately wages every 4 months would have to be met by the state and by each business. I can understand why (as it makes it cheaper during the downturn, to introduce) but it's staggered over some 20 months. It may be better to simply stagger it over say 18 or 24 months but in two increments, rather than 5.

Introduce an amendment if you like

I'm still haggling over the money before I look at the math

[afleitch]

This is a good bill.  We need to ensure that the working class is being paid enough to reasonably live on.  I support this 100%.

But we also need to protect small businesses that may not be able to afford these types of hourly wages in such dire economic times.

Yes, I agree with that, which is also why a small tax cut on small business might also be in order.

We don't have the capacity to do that. Otherwise we could bypass the whole issue regarding small businesses and cut taxes for the lowest incomes like afleitch attempted (which most of us didn't support, and I still won't).

There are also tax cuts affecting small businesses already in effect due to the stimulus bill. The fact that people want to introduce these measures piecemeal and somewhat timidly shows that there are concerns over its effect at a time of economic crisis and possible recovery.

[afleitch]

Therefore

Reasonable Minimum Wage Act

1. A federal minimum wage of $7.25 shall be established by the end of 2009, which shall be increased to $8.50 by the end of 2010.

2. After 2010, the minimum wage shall be indexed to the rate of wage inflation, as measured by the Employment Cost Index (ECI). In periods of wage deflation as measured by the ECI, the minimum wage will be frozen.

3. Any employer found to be paying any of his employees below the minimum wage shall be sentenced to a fine of up to $20,000.

[afleitch]

Wow, opposed wholeheartedly. The only decent thing there is the first change.

What's wrong with linking the minimum wage to wages?

[afleitch]

"As wages can be cut in lean times, so too can the minimum wage."

I absolutely, wholeheartedly, completely, 100%, without exception oppose a system where the minimum wage can drop.

Why not? If there were 3 years of wage deflation, should the minimum wage rise for those three years? It's a bit of kick in the gut for those who earn not far above the minimum wage and see their wages drop. Besides if they fall for one year, if there is wage growth the next year the minimum wage goes back up.

The minimum wage cannot keep increasing regardless of what else is happening in the economy and with comparitive wages.

[afleitch]

I seriously wonder about your definition of the word "minimum" (which, to me, implies some sort of floor) if your idea of a minimum wage is one that floats back and forth. It completely destroys the purpose of a wage minimum if that minimum isn't solid.

The minimum wage will be solid in the manner that you cannot pay someone anything below it.

Do you know what happens if we have say several years of wage deflation and the minimum wage keeps going up? Employers who employ people cents, or a dollar above that start to bring their workers wages down to meet the minimum wage. Low wages start to 'back up' against the minimum wage increasing the number of workers who are paid the very minimum (rather than just above it) It leads to people with different roles and skills who would usually be paid a different wage being paid the same, so the more skilled worker is shortchanged or finds that they get the same money for doing less and their employer is willing to let that happen therefore reducing skills.

The minimum wage cannot operate in a vacuum in comparison to everyone else in the workplace.

[afleitch]

I think attaching it to the wage inflation is actually pretty fair.

How about a compromise like U.S. social security checks are run?

Let's tie the minimum wage to "wage inflation", but only if that number is equal or greater than 0, otherwise, it just stays the same.

I would tend to support this idea. As I told Marokai via PM I won't support a minimum wage that falls during deflationary times.

I would also support that by way of a compromise.

EDIT: I have amended the amendment

[afleitch]

I still wish that penalties against wage violations were more harsh, but we can work on that.

Would everyone be fine with eliminating Clause 2, though? I regret writing that, and I know at least one or two others have voiced objections to me privately about it.

In what manner were the objections may I ask?

[afleitch]

So afleitch, if you amend your amendment again to remove Clause 2 I'll accept it as friendly and we can move on to another issue.

Done.

[afleitch]

I object.

A fine of up to £30,000 for one violation, deliberate or in error (and trust me it happens! People in my workplace were paid under the minimum wage for 3 months due to an error) could be enough to close a workplace down and cast it's employees into unemployment. The reasons for taking legal action against an employer have to be tightened in the legislation.

[afleitch]

I object.

A fine of up to £30,000 for one violation, deliberate or in error (and trust me it happens! People in my workplace were paid under the minimum wage for 3 months due to an error) could be enough to close a workplace down and cast it's employees into unemployment. The reasons for taking legal action against an employer have to be tightened in the legislation.

Good thing we don't use pounds.

Yes. Given the weakness of the Dollar

[afleitch]

Nay.

[afleitch]

Aye

[afleitch]

Got what I wanted - so Aye