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Author Topic: Building The City  (Read 21604 times)
Sibboleth
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« on: September 15, 2009, 04:40:11 pm »

It begins!

First things first - where is our city, roughly?
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Hashemite
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2009, 05:06:53 pm »
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I like my Le Havre idea, so if we mimick Le Havre, at the mouth of a major river and also one the shore of an important sea/ocean/channel whatever.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 05:22:09 pm »

Well, as far as that kind of thing goes I like the idea of mixing docks with other heavy industry. But what should the language of this city be?
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afleitch
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2009, 05:31:22 pm »
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Well, as far as that kind of thing goes I like the idea of mixing docks with other heavy industry. But what should the language of this city be?

English Cheesy

I like the idea of Le Havre geography wise (as I'm used to Atlantic port cities Grin) but I'd like a city...'British' in character I suppose; something split by class and area.
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Hashemite
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 06:18:43 pm »
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Well, as far as that kind of thing goes I like the idea of mixing docks with other heavy industry. But what should the language of this city be?

Maybe English would be best for this forum, but it would be interesting to have an historical linguistic minority.
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Хahar
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 06:19:58 pm »
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Well, as far as that kind of thing goes I like the idea of mixing docks with other heavy industry. But what should the language of this city be?

Maybe English would be best for this forum, but it would be interesting to have an historical linguistic minority.

Yes, a minority entirely gone/assimilated by now.
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 07:11:25 pm »
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Actually, I nominate Pittsburgh circa 1950.  Certainly the on of the greatest experiments, and to date failures, of urban renewal... assuming you guys are still going that route, I have been out of the loop for a very long time.

You guys should probably just design your own city, though.  I think that idea had merit.
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2009, 07:39:22 pm »
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Well, as far as that kind of thing goes I like the idea of mixing docks with other heavy industry. But what should the language of this city be?

Yeah, I like an industrial city with docks and heavy industry and some very strong Labour-voting constituencies, so long as there are enough Tory and swing seats that either party can form a majority in council. Perhaps also a popularly elected Mayor, as well?
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Hashemite
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 08:02:23 pm »
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Well, as far as that kind of thing goes I like the idea of mixing docks with other heavy industry. But what should the language of this city be?

Yeah, I like an industrial city with docks and heavy industry and some very strong Labour-voting constituencies, so long as there are enough Tory and swing seats that either party can form a majority in council. Perhaps also a popularly elected Mayor, as well?

That's why I like my Le Havre idea - there are some wealthy areas, sometimes very wealthy, areas within the city itself in addition to some very rich suburbs (like Ste Adresse is to Le Havre) save for the dirt-poor industrial suburbs (like Gonfreville-L'Orcher is to Le Havre)
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 08:56:37 pm »
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Hmmm... I'm searching for that emoticon that is just a middle finger waving back and forth.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2009, 08:58:47 pm »

Actually, I nominate Pittsburgh circa 1950.  Certainly the on of the greatest experiments, and to date failures, of urban renewal... assuming you guys are still going that route, I have been out of the loop for a very long time.

You guys should probably just design your own city, though.  I think that idea had merit.

Well the plan (this time round Smiley) is to design a rough outline of a city, and then incorporate a degree of real detail into specific areas - if this is to be a city historically dependent on heavy industry, then parts of Pittsburgh would work fine.
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2009, 09:30:55 pm »
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Le Havre actually looks pretty good (on Google Maps) - not too large, but large enough to be financially able to make lots of decisions.
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2009, 10:14:33 pm »
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I constructed an entire metropolitan area if you're interested...

However, it has its flaws.  I suspect it's too white-collary for you, Al, more like the Columbus or Twin Cities metropolitan area of present than the types of places you like Wink
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Hashemite
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2009, 07:15:03 am »
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Le Havre actually looks pretty good (on Google Maps) - not too large, but large enough to be financially able to make lots of decisions.

Just for reference vis-a-vis income;


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Hashemite
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2009, 07:19:53 am »
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FTR, I have no problem with integrating parts of various cities into this city... or its suburbs. Either in terms of housing, industry etc. Le Havre is just a basic idea for geography, and maybe income structure and polarization (which would make things fun).
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2009, 07:51:34 am »
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FTR, I have no problem with integrating parts of various cities into this city... or its suburbs. Either in terms of housing, industry etc. Le Havre is just a basic idea for geography, and maybe income structure and polarization (which would make things fun).

I agree. I'm already working on two parts of Glasgow I'd like to integrate into the model.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2009, 08:47:09 am »

So Le Havre for the basic outline of the city, mixed heavy industrial base (the docks, yes, but also other industries often found near the coast - steelworks, say. Maybe chemical factories. And I think we can work in some incorporated mining villages on the fringes of the city (btw, presuming industrial surrounds for the city makes it easy to concentrate the bourgeois parts of the city - which seems to be one of the attracts of Le Havre). This gives us a pretty diverse city in some respects. I think we could also give it an older centre, perhaps with a cathedral. It should also have a university - late 19th century probably). Anyway. I'll post a couple of test maps this afternoon.
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2009, 10:11:01 am »
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So Le Havre for the basic outline of the city, mixed heavy industrial base (the docks, yes, but also other industries often found near the coast - steelworks, say. Maybe chemical factories. And I think we can work in some incorporated mining villages on the fringes of the city (btw, presuming industrial surrounds for the city makes it easy to concentrate the bourgeois parts of the city - which seems to be one of the attracts of Le Havre). This gives us a pretty diverse city in some respects. I think we could also give it an older centre, perhaps with a cathedral. It should also have a university - late 19th century probably). Anyway. I'll post a couple of test maps this afternoon.

I have a (oh no not again) Glasgow based solution to where to site the middle class; hills. The west end of Glasgow boomed post 1850 when it became easier to construct sweeping terraces on hilly ground (Glasgow is peppered with 'drumlins'). Places like Hyndland are seperated from working class areas by a 40 degree gradient approach. High living meant you lived above the smog. It's also an interesting class metaphor Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2009, 10:13:29 am »
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I would suggest a couple of working class estates in the suburbs. The city probably would have been bombed during the war and these would have been built to house people who were bombed out.

We have these in London.
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Sibboleth
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2009, 10:59:35 am »



Outline of the City (presuming it has city status) at the beginning of the game.
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Hashemite
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2009, 03:08:30 pm »
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So Le Havre for the basic outline of the city, mixed heavy industrial base (the docks, yes, but also other industries often found near the coast - steelworks, say. Maybe chemical factories. And I think we can work in some incorporated mining villages on the fringes of the city (btw, presuming industrial surrounds for the city makes it easy to concentrate the bourgeois parts of the city - which seems to be one of the attracts of Le Havre). This gives us a pretty diverse city in some respects. I think we could also give it an older centre, perhaps with a cathedral. It should also have a university - late 19th century probably). Anyway. I'll post a couple of test maps this afternoon.

I have a (oh no not again) Glasgow based solution to where to site the middle class; hills. The west end of Glasgow boomed post 1850 when it became easier to construct sweeping terraces on hilly ground (Glasgow is peppered with 'drumlins'). Places like Hyndland are seperated from working class areas by a 40 degree gradient approach. High living meant you lived above the smog. It's also an interesting class metaphor Smiley

Lends itself nicely, again, to Le Havre Wink

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.500465,0.140247&spn=0.065776,0.181789&t=p&z=13
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Хahar
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2009, 05:36:50 pm »
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Aside from San Francisco, the only city I really know is Dhaka. I suppose you don't want that.
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« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2009, 10:50:23 pm »
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Actually, voting patterns in Melbourne are quite interesting. It's numerous municipalities across the greater Melbourne area, but has very distinct Conservative/Labour areas (or Liberal vs Labor, given that we're talking about Australia). I put a couple of primary vote maps in the gallery the other day, but I'll put in another few showing seats parties won, etc).

Here are the links (I won't post the image because it'll create a large post which doesn't relate precisely to the thread).

These three maps are the Upper House vote recorded, but done according to the Lower House electorate. This is to try to anull any personal vote an incumbent might have in the Lower House (since the Upper House is predominantly a vote for a particular party).

Greens vote: http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_09_09_09_3_16_35.PNG
Labor vote: http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_09_09_09_3_17_54.PNG - look particularly at the Melbourne map (top one). You can very clearly see Labor's heartland in the west, north-west and south-east. The pink areas are typically upper-middle class to wealthy and the red areas (excluding the inner city, where the greens polled well, thus drawing down the Labor vote) are predominantly your average suburbia/swing seats.
Liberal vote: http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_09_09_09_3_18_54.PNG - not specifically about Melbourne, but some of the lightly-shaded areas in rural Victoria are strong National Party areas - so the Liberal Party did poorly but they're still very conservative.

Here is the election result, showing which party won each seat. The Independent was an incumbent, and an incumbent independent was defeated in Mildura, in the state's north-west corner. Two seats are 2PP Nationals vs Liberals, and four are Labor vs Greens - read my comments for details: http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_16_09_09_11_29_49.PNG

This is the result of which party received the most votes in the Upper House, according to the Lower House electorate. It's effectively the same as the numerous maps on the site for FPTP elections in other countries, although minor party votes are probably inflated, given that this was STV rather than FPTP. http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/GALLERY/2482_16_09_09_11_44_36.PNG

I like the idea of chemical factories and steelworks. I think both foundaries and petrochemical factories are the sorts of heavy industry that frequently are surrounded by low-income working class households.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2009, 12:03:27 am »
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An added dimension with Pittsburgh, of course, is the many established neighborhoods, and topography.  In terms of those neighborhoods, it is very easy to track their historical development, even if you aren't from the area.
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afleitch
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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2009, 02:54:02 am »
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So Le Havre for the basic outline of the city, mixed heavy industrial base (the docks, yes, but also other industries often found near the coast - steelworks, say. Maybe chemical factories. And I think we can work in some incorporated mining villages on the fringes of the city (btw, presuming industrial surrounds for the city makes it easy to concentrate the bourgeois parts of the city - which seems to be one of the attracts of Le Havre). This gives us a pretty diverse city in some respects. I think we could also give it an older centre, perhaps with a cathedral. It should also have a university - late 19th century probably). Anyway. I'll post a couple of test maps this afternoon.

I have a (oh no not again) Glasgow based solution to where to site the middle class; hills. The west end of Glasgow boomed post 1850 when it became easier to construct sweeping terraces on hilly ground (Glasgow is peppered with 'drumlins'). Places like Hyndland are seperated from working class areas by a 40 degree gradient approach. High living meant you lived above the smog. It's also an interesting class metaphor Smiley

Lends itself nicely, again, to Le Havre Wink

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.500465,0.140247&spn=0.065776,0.181789&t=p&z=13

Yes I noticed that from Street View

Though I'll post a Glasgow example to show what I mean

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