What car should I get?

[Alexander Hamilton]

I wasn't aware of that, but I'm sure you are aware why the auto industry and industry in general was thus destroyed (I mean why the clearly damaging policies you describe were followed) - it served the purposes of the owning class in the US.  They wanted to destroy the unions, reduced working class incomes, and knock one of the power-supports out from under the Democratic Party.

I support destroying unions. I hate unions. But I am still very much for the working man (which is why I hate unions). Like I have said many times, a service economy is unsustainable. We have to put in some serious labor/industry/trade reform in place if we want to remain a superpower in this new "global" era.

[Alexander Hamilton]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

They get 90% and you get 10%. Or, you could pay 100% and get 10%.

[opebo]

I wasn't aware of that, but I'm sure you are aware why the auto industry and industry in general was thus destroyed (I mean why the clearly damaging policies you describe were followed) - it served the purposes of the owning class in the US.  They wanted to destroy the unions, reduced working class incomes, and knock one of the power-supports out from under the Democratic Party.

I support destroying unions. I hate unions. But I am still very much for the working man (which is why I hate unions). Like I have said many times, a service economy is unsustainable. We have to put in some serious labor/industry/trade reform in place if we want to remain a superpower in this new "global" era.

You apparently have no knowledge of history.

[opebo]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

Long term plan, deadman.  You are extremely shortsighted with the delusions you have.

[Alexander Hamilton]

I wasn't aware of that, but I'm sure you are aware why the auto industry and industry in general was thus destroyed (I mean why the clearly damaging policies you describe were followed) - it served the purposes of the owning class in the US.  They wanted to destroy the unions, reduced working class incomes, and knock one of the power-supports out from under the Democratic Party.

I support destroying unions. I hate unions. But I am still very much for the working man (which is why I hate unions). Like I have said many times, a service economy is unsustainable. We have to put in some serious labor/industry/trade reform in place if we want to remain a superpower in this new "global" era.

You apparently have no knowledge of history.

I do. That was history. Things are no longer the same as they were in the past.

[Alexander Hamilton]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

Long term plan, deadman.  You are extremely shortsighted with the delusions you have.

Libertarian economics would kill this nation.

[opebo]

You apparently have no knowledge of history.

I do. That was history. Things are no longer the same as they were in the past.

Because of unions.  And the liberals in the Democratic Party.  We are heading right back to those old abuses, and nothing has changed about what the owners want to do to the workers.

[dead0man]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

They get 90% and you get 10%. Or, you could pay 100% and get 10%.

heh?  Woudn't I get 100% of a stereo for 90% of the price?  Are we talking about two different things here?

[dead0man]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

Long term plan, deadman.  You are extremely shortsighted with the delusions you have.

Libertarian economics would kill this nation.

Perhaps, but what does this have to do with "libertarian economics" vs "non-libertarian economics"?

[Alexander Hamilton]

You apparently have no knowledge of history.

I do. That was history. Things are no longer the same as they were in the past.

Because of unions.  And the liberals in the Democratic Party.  We are heading right back to those old abuses, and nothing has changed about what the owners want to do to the workers.

You are thinking of the greatest President (a Republican) Theodore Roosevelt.

Anyways, unions became useless after the 50s. In fact, they are a large contributor to outsourcing, due to giving other nations a more competitive advantage because they force wages to go to a level that is far above market value. They also, in the same way, cause less jobs to be available to others because it costs more for each employee. Therefore, we have one employed at an illogical wage and one unemployed because of that. And don't forget "legacy costs."

[opebo]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

They get 90% and you get 10%. Or, you could pay 100% and get 10%.

heh?  Woudn't I get 100% of a stereo for 90% of the price?  Are we talking about two different things here?

AH does understand that 'you' don't exist as a free-floating 'economic entity', deadman.  You don't understand this.

[dead0man]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

Long term plan, deadman.  You are extremely shortsighted with the delusions you have.

Says the guy that wants a large dole for all.

[Alexander Hamilton]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

They get 90% and you get 10%. Or, you could pay 100% and get 10%.

heh?  Woudn't I get 100% of a stereo for 90% of the price?  Are we talking about two different things here?

No. I am saying that Japan will get that 90% and you keep the other 10% of your money. Whereas buying American gives you that money circulated back through our own economy, strengthening our businesses and our workforce, while you still get the same product. You pay 100% of the price but the 10% still comes back to you (theoretically) by reducing unemployment, allowing our companies to be more competitive globally, therefore reducing prices, etc.

[dead0man]

AH does understand that 'you' don't exist as a free-floating 'economic entity', deadman.  You don't understand this.

I have suggested I exist as a free-floating econmic entity?  That seems an odd thing for me to say.

Why am I slumming here and talking to you about economics anyway?

[opebo]

Anyways, unions became useless after the 50s. In fact, they are a large contributor to outsourcing, due to giving other nations a more competitive advantage because they force wages to go to a level that is far above market value.

Unions 'became useless after the 50s'?  That's precisely when they had had some success, AH!  That's like saying the toilet becomes useless after you shat.  Don't you understand that as soon as the power which protected the powerless is gone, the owners will go back to treating them like dogs?  Just as has been proven by the events of the last 30 right-wing years?

As long as we have a brutal, violent hierarchy as our social model, the need for some political action as a counterweight to this is ongoing and continual.  It doesn't end just because of some minor succesess.

And by the way, 'market value' is absolute nonsense - it is a politically defined amount, and 'the market' is a misrepresentation of political power.

[opebo]

AH does understand that 'you' don't exist as a free-floating 'economic entity', deadman.  You don't understand this.

I have suggested I exist as a free-floating econmic entity?  That seems an odd thing for me to say.

Why am I slumming here and talking to you about economics anyway?

He's saying that your community 'america' gets 10% and Japan as a 'society' gets 90%.  My point is that you think 'you' get a 10% discount, and fail to recognize that you incur enormous costs due to the destruction of that which you are very directly dependent upon - 'the USA'.

[Alexander Hamilton]

Anyways, unions became useless after the 50s. In fact, they are a large contributor to outsourcing, due to giving other nations a more competitive advantage because they force wages to go to a level that is far above market value.

Unions 'became useless after the 50s'?  That's precisely when they had had some success, AH!  That's like saying the toilet becomes useless after you shat.  Don't you understand that as soon as the power which protected the powerless is gone, the owners will go back to treating them like dogs?  Just as has been proven by the events of the last 30 right-wing years?

You mean like how they are treating their new Mexican and Chinese and other countries' employees? I'm not advocating that the goals are particularly evil as much as I am trying to point that it is unrealistic to implement within the parameters of our contemporary global economy and the policies of the nations within.

  

As long as we have a brutal, violent hierarchy as our social model, the need for some political action as a counterweight to this is ongoing and continual.  It doesn't end just because of some minor succesess.

And by the way, 'market value' is absolute nonsense - it is a politically defined amount, and 'the market' is a misrepresentation of political power.

That is only possible within a closed market, however. My economic policies are perhaps less "principled" than yours or dead0man's, but I also don't represent a particular class, either. I hope to use government to promote the expansion of business and the worker mutually and concurrently to the benefit of "the Bad Place."

[Alexander Hamilton]

AH does understand that 'you' don't exist as a free-floating 'economic entity', deadman.  You don't understand this.

I have suggested I exist as a free-floating econmic entity?  That seems an odd thing for me to say.

Why am I slumming here and talking to you about economics anyway?

He's saying that your community 'america' gets 10% and Japan as a 'society' gets 90%.  My point is that you think 'you' get a 10% discount, and fail to recognize that you incur enormous costs due to the destruction of that which you are very directly dependent upon - 'the USA'.

Precisely. Not many people understand this. If they did, there would be far less Wal-Mart shoppers.

[opebo]

You do represent a class, AH - the owning class.  Perhaps your devotion to them is a bit less absolute and slavish than deadman's, but you're somewhat less deluded than he and have that much less excuse.

[dead0man]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

They get 90% and you get 10%. Or, you could pay 100% and get 10%.

heh?  Woudn't I get 100% of a stereo for 90% of the price?  Are we talking about two different things here?

No. I am saying that Japan will get that 90% and you keep the other 10% of your money. Whereas buying American gives you that money circulated back through our own economy, strengthening our businesses and our workforce, while you still get the same product. You pay 100% of the price but the 10% still comes back to you (theoretically) by reducing unemployment, allowing our companies to be more competitive globally, therefore reducing prices, etc.

Sure, all else being equal buying locally is always better for everybody involved.  But 10% is 10%.  If I can save 5% by buying one made in Oregon vs one made down the street, should I?  I'm still helping America right?  If I can save another 5% by buying one made in Japan, I'm still helping the West right?  America is part of the West isn't it?  If I save another 5% and buy one made in Mexico am I'm helping America out by keeping one more illegal out?  Or am I hurting America by keeping one more illegal out?  What if I can save another 10% by buying one made in China?  I'm not helping anybody out there.  Well, importers and shipping giants I guess.  Yet we all own things that were made China.  Things that used to be made in Vietnam and before that, Japan and before that, Ohio.  Was America better with all that pollution but with the jobs?  Were we better off when things were more expensive, but made locally?  Does pollution in China affect me less or the same as pollution in Chicago?  It's certainly easier to control the pollution in Chicago vs China.

I'm off work now so I can't complete this.  I may be back.

[Alexander Hamilton]

You do represent a class, AH - the owning class. 

Where do you derive this conclusion from?

[opebo]

You do represent a class, AH - the owning class. 

Where do you derive this conclusion from?

You support capitalism, AH, which benefits only the one class.

[Alexander Hamilton]

Why should we complain if foreign nations are subsidising our purchases?  If the Japanese govt wants to pay 10% of my Sony stereo for me, who am I to argue with them?

They get 90% and you get 10%. Or, you could pay 100% and get 10%.

heh?  Woudn't I get 100% of a stereo for 90% of the price?  Are we talking about two different things here?

No. I am saying that Japan will get that 90% and you keep the other 10% of your money. Whereas buying American gives you that money circulated back through our own economy, strengthening our businesses and our workforce, while you still get the same product. You pay 100% of the price but the 10% still comes back to you (theoretically) by reducing unemployment, allowing our companies to be more competitive globally, therefore reducing prices, etc.

Sure, all else being equal buying locally is always better for everybody involved.  But 10% is 10%.  If I can save 5% by buying one made in Oregon vs one made down the street, should I?  I'm still helping America right?

Yes and yes.

 If I can save another 5% by buying one made in Japan, I'm still helping the West right?  America is part of the West isn't it?

No, the "West" is non-existent. There is no legal entity known as the "West" and how would helping it benefit anyone? Also, Japan is regarded as "Far East" geographically but if by "West" you mean "industrialized nations" you are merely feeding the competition.

 If I save another 5% and buy one made in Mexico am I'm helping America out by keeping one more illegal out? Or am I hurting America by keeping one more illegal out?

No, because American lifestyle is preferable to Mexican lifestyle regardless.

 What if I can save another 10% by buying one made in China?  I'm not helping anybody out there.  Well, importers and shipping giants I guess.  Yet we all own things that were made China.  Things that used to be made in Vietnam and before that, Japan and before that, Ohio.  Was America better with all that pollution but with the jobs?  

Air and water circulate. Pollution eventually affects us in someway no matter where the point source. You would merely be contributing to the corporatist regime.

Were we better off when things were more expensive, but made locally?  

Yes. The wealth was recirculated among us while our productivity allowed us expanded economic opportunities, which then repeats the cycle of investment, growth, and increased standard of living.

Does pollution in China affect me less or the same as pollution in Chicago?  It's certainly easier to control the pollution in Chicago vs China.

It is difficult to determine but if you are buying a car you most likely aren't that concerned with pollution.

[Alexander Hamilton]

You do represent a class, AH - the owning class. 

Where do you derive this conclusion from?

You support capitalism, AH, which benefits only the one class.

My support of capitalism is limited to the sort that uses increased productivity and expansion of enterprise to benefit the working man and his family. I have oft-spoken against corporatism.

[opebo]

You do represent a class, AH - the owning class. 

Where do you derive this conclusion from?

You support capitalism, AH, which benefits only the one class.

My support of capitalism is limited to the sort that uses increased productivity and expansion of enterprise to benefit the working man and his family. I have oft-spoken against corporatism.

You and I have precisely the same goals, then, but we just disagree on methodology.  I think something very much farther to the left is necessary to 'benefit the working man' - something along the lines of social democracy.