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Question: Why do you support Israel's right to exist?
Because it is a modern democracy   -37 (23%)
Because it is a US ally   -22 (13.7%)
Because the Jewish people have a right to a safe homeland.   -43 (26.7%)
Because it is to play a vital role in the end of the world.   -3 (1.9%)
Other reason (specify)   -15 (9.3%)
I don't.  I'm neutral (really?)   -12 (7.5%)
I don't, because the land was wrongly taken from the Palistinians.   -23 (14.3%)
I don't Death to the infidels.   -6 (3.7%)
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Total Voters: 90

Author Topic: Why do you support Israel's right to exist?  (Read 7830 times)
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2009, 03:38:32 pm »
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Mostly because it exists. And when a majority of a country's population wishes their country to continue to exist, it should continue to exist.
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2009, 04:23:26 pm »
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I don't support their 'right' to exist; no State has a 'right' to exist. They either exist, or they do not.
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« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2009, 03:30:09 pm »
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Option 3, and none else. There were certainly better places to put them, however.

Name three.

1. Encourage them to immigrate the US mainland, let them rebuild a Jewish society here.

2. Ghyl Tarkove's idea about Central Brazil, I think Brazil would have welcomed settlers into that area, as they did encourage people to move from the coasts.

3. There's always Alaska.


You notice that I'm not advocating creating a new state, just other areas for them to move. If we were going to create a new state, which we did, Israel is the obvious choice as that is where they originate.


Option 3, and none else. There were certainly better places to put them, however.

No assumptions intended, but, hmm, here you speak a bit like if it was some cattle, which is not very welcome, especially when we refer to the post-Holocaust period...

I was merely suggesting that there may have been better areas to encourage them to move or settle, sorry if I did not clarify so well. Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2009, 10:42:14 pm »
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None of the choices comport precisely with my point of view. My view, is yes, Israel does have a "right" to exit (the very question is a bit condescending actually) because the folks that live there, were born there, have a right not to ejected, killed, or otherwise reduced to another diaspora. We don't think Americans who came here more recently are anything less than Americans who trace their linage to the Puritans. Re-litigating history on the one hand (the Arab claim), and springing executory interests on the other (the Jewish historical claim), is a fool's errand. It is a recipe for perpetual conflict, That impulse must be resisted. It is a matter of human decency. It is what is right. The rest is noise.

And the idea that the Jews are interlopers who must be removed, through the long slow logic of demographics, is a profoundly immoral idea. Once their neighbors accept the idea of pluralism, and it becomes hard wiring, instinctual, than perhaps the conversation can change. Until then, let the wall remain strong - and thick.
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« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2009, 11:18:05 pm »
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Option 3, and none else. There were certainly better places to put them, however.

Name three.

1. Encourage them to immigrate the US mainland, let them rebuild a Jewish society here.

2. Ghyl Tarkove's idea about Central Brazil, I think Brazil would have welcomed settlers into that area, as they did encourage people to move from the coasts.

3. There's always Alaska.


You notice that I'm not advocating creating a new state, just other areas for them to move. If we were going to create a new state, which we did, Israel is the obvious choice as that is where they originate.

If option one isn't for the formation of a new state, another state within in a state, then what good does that do? Jews are welcomed to come over, and there is already a sizable amount here; I doubt they'll settle for second best over a nation of their own.

Option two and three sound like massive impositions, namely in the second, on the Brazilians, and the third, on the Jews themselves.
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2009, 12:05:15 am »
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Because just because their country was founded in a not-particularly-moral way 60 years ago doesn't mean it's less legitimate than a country founded in a not-particularly-moral way 200 years ago. I support their right to exist as a country, much as I support the right of Bolivia or Ghana to exist.

I don't support fawning over them like many people do.
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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2009, 12:13:53 pm »
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The first three.
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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2009, 12:32:17 pm »
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It means that God gave the land to Abraham, and Isaac was his heir, not Ishmael.

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« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2009, 12:41:44 pm »
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It means that God gave the land to Abraham, and Isaac was his heir, not Ishmael.



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« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2009, 04:35:18 pm »
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The Jewish people deserve a safe homeland.

Well, if we consider this only argument, then my advice to "the Jewish people" is to get off from there!! And fast!

This part of the world might be the less safe for them today...

Actually, beside the Zionist justifications, on which I wouldn't debate, I don't feel concerned by that, if we take the only argument of a safe home, then they could have stayed in Europe. The Holocaust, because of the awful (forgive my English, other words may be more appropriate to what it has been) thing it has been, made it. While it burned a lot of people, it burned with them all the anti-semite feelings that existed, (well or at least the huge part of them), and that's a luck we can say that "at least", it permitted this, it created a vaccine against anti-semitism in West, making that West may now be the safest place for Jew, more than ever. And maybe to the point that it becomes sometimes a bit too much when we see the growing paranoia here concerning the anti-Jews feelings.

Yes, since the end of the nazi regime, the only problem that people had with Jews it is about Zionism, it is no more against Jew, the big problem is Israel, no more the Jewish people, which wasn't the case before, before Jews had to face an actual anti-semitism. One more example of this is that, in the first part of the last century, the Arab leaders, seeing that they needed to modernize their lands, called some Jews, because they found they were smart and able to help them to modernize themselves, they even proposed some territories to these Jews then. Unluckily the deal didn't work, and unluckily I've forgotten the references about this historical episode, maybe others heard about it.

Actually, there is no more the actual anti-semitism of before today, there is just some anti-zionism, so this argument of the safe land may be the last to use. After, of course, the Zionist issue became so much passionated that it revived all the old fantasies, but these ones are no more the source of hatred they were before.

Note that here I'm not advocating against Israel, just stating about this argument.

And, no, I'm not really neutral. I think Israel can carry some big improvements in this region, but this to only one condition, that they stop to claim for a "Jewish" state. They wanna continue? May they enjoy their sorrow, and surely their destruction on the long term...

I'm not neutral, I plead for an only state, the creation of a new entity, with the both people, Arabs and Jews, overcoming their identity to create a new one. The f**k, that would be beautiful, and strong. It's them to see...

That is an excellent point. The one good thing good about Israel's as a state rather than just a group of people is  that one can oppose the country while before it was created one would be labeled a racist for opposing crimes despite the fact many are still labeled racist for opposing Israel. It really goes further back to when the Rothschilds got started in the 1700's and even further back the ancient Pharasies. Jewish leadership has always been immoral and corrupt and Jews and only liberate themselves if they turn against the corrupt leadership but unfortounatly the majority of Jews either go a long with them or are silent.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 04:37:36 pm by Governor PiT »Logged





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« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2009, 04:41:45 pm »
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I DON'T SUPPORT ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST, I'M A HAMAS PALESTINIAN COMMIE LOVER LOL.
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« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2009, 04:45:25 pm »
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The Jewish people deserve a safe homeland.

Well, if we consider this only argument, then my advice to "the Jewish people" is to get off from there!! And fast!

This part of the world might be the less safe for them today...

Actually, beside the Zionist justifications, on which I wouldn't debate, I don't feel concerned by that, if we take the only argument of a safe home, then they could have stayed in Europe. The Holocaust, because of the awful (forgive my English, other words may be more appropriate to what it has been) thing it has been, made it. While it burned a lot of people, it burned with them all the anti-semite feelings that existed, (well or at least the huge part of them), and that's a luck we can say that "at least", it permitted this, it created a vaccine against anti-semitism in West, making that West may now be the safest place for Jew, more than ever. And maybe to the point that it becomes sometimes a bit too much when we see the growing paranoia here concerning the anti-Jews feelings.

Yes, since the end of the nazi regime, the only problem that people had with Jews it is about Zionism, it is no more against Jew, the big problem is Israel, no more the Jewish people, which wasn't the case before, before Jews had to face an actual anti-semitism. One more example of this is that, in the first part of the last century, the Arab leaders, seeing that they needed to modernize their lands, called some Jews, because they found they were smart and able to help them to modernize themselves, they even proposed some territories to these Jews then. Unluckily the deal didn't work, and unluckily I've forgotten the references about this historical episode, maybe others heard about it.

Actually, there is no more the actual anti-semitism of before today, there is just some anti-zionism, so this argument of the safe land may be the last to use. After, of course, the Zionist issue became so much passionated that it revived all the old fantasies, but these ones are no more the source of hatred they were before.

Note that here I'm not advocating against Israel, just stating about this argument.

And, no, I'm not really neutral. I think Israel can carry some big improvements in this region, but this to only one condition, that they stop to claim for a "Jewish" state. They wanna continue? May they enjoy their sorrow, and surely their destruction on the long term...

I'm not neutral, I plead for an only state, the creation of a new entity, with the both people, Arabs and Jews, overcoming their identity to create a new one. The f**k, that would be beautiful, and strong. It's them to see...

That is an excellent point. The one good thing good about Israel's as a state rather than just a group of people is  that one can oppose the country while before it was created one would be labeled a racist for opposing crimes despite the fact many are still labeled racist for opposing Israel. It really goes further back to when the Rothschilds got started in the 1700's and even further back the ancient Pharasies. Jewish leadership has always been immoral and corrupt and Jews and only liberate themselves if they turn against the corrupt leadership but unfortounatly the majority of Jews either go a long with them or are silent.

Just a precision, to be sure there is no confusion.

When I personally blame the claim of a "Jewish" state, it is because I think it is very bad to shut one state to a notion of ethnicity. I prefer when states are based on principles (maybe my French prism intervenes here). Furthermore, from a pragmatic and I would even say fair point of view, I think it's some madness to wanna keep it in this reality. If they can go for one state non shut to a notion of ethnicity (no matter it is the Jewish one for me), I think they would make a huge step to some big productive progress there.

That's all what I meant, I personally don't buy this notion of corrupt leadership at all.
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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2009, 04:50:05 pm »
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The Jewish people deserve a safe homeland.

Well, if we consider this only argument, then my advice to "the Jewish people" is to get off from there!! And fast!

This part of the world might be the less safe for them today...

Actually, beside the Zionist justifications, on which I wouldn't debate, I don't feel concerned by that, if we take the only argument of a safe home, then they could have stayed in Europe. The Holocaust, because of the awful (forgive my English, other words may be more appropriate to what it has been) thing it has been, made it. While it burned a lot of people, it burned with them all the anti-semite feelings that existed, (well or at least the huge part of them), and that's a luck we can say that "at least", it permitted this, it created a vaccine against anti-semitism in West, making that West may now be the safest place for Jew, more than ever. And maybe to the point that it becomes sometimes a bit too much when we see the growing paranoia here concerning the anti-Jews feelings.

Yes, since the end of the nazi regime, the only problem that people had with Jews it is about Zionism, it is no more against Jew, the big problem is Israel, no more the Jewish people, which wasn't the case before, before Jews had to face an actual anti-semitism. One more example of this is that, in the first part of the last century, the Arab leaders, seeing that they needed to modernize their lands, called some Jews, because they found they were smart and able to help them to modernize themselves, they even proposed some territories to these Jews then. Unluckily the deal didn't work, and unluckily I've forgotten the references about this historical episode, maybe others heard about it.

Actually, there is no more the actual anti-semitism of before today, there is just some anti-zionism, so this argument of the safe land may be the last to use. After, of course, the Zionist issue became so much passionated that it revived all the old fantasies, but these ones are no more the source of hatred they were before.

Note that here I'm not advocating against Israel, just stating about this argument.

And, no, I'm not really neutral. I think Israel can carry some big improvements in this region, but this to only one condition, that they stop to claim for a "Jewish" state. They wanna continue? May they enjoy their sorrow, and surely their destruction on the long term...

I'm not neutral, I plead for an only state, the creation of a new entity, with the both people, Arabs and Jews, overcoming their identity to create a new one. The f**k, that would be beautiful, and strong. It's them to see...

That is an excellent point. The one good thing good about Israel's as a state rather than just a group of people is  that one can oppose the country while before it was created one would be labeled a racist for opposing crimes despite the fact many are still labeled racist for opposing Israel. It really goes further back to when the Rothschilds got started in the 1700's and even further back the ancient Pharasies. Jewish leadership has always been immoral and corrupt and Jews and only liberate themselves if they turn against the corrupt leadership but unfortounatly the majority of Jews either go a long with them or are silent.

Just a precision, to be sure there is no confusion.

When I personally blame the claim of a "Jewish" state, it is because I think it is very bad to shut one state to a notion of ethnicity. I prefer when states are based on principles (maybe my French prism intervenes here). Furthermore, from a pragmatic and I would even say fair point of view, I think it's some madness to wanna keep it in this reality. If they can go for one state non shut to a notion of ethnicity (no matter it is the Jewish one for me), I think they would make a huge step to some big productive progress there.

That's all what I meant, I personally don't buy this notion of corrupt leadership at all.

Well, the government of Israel and the Jewish organizations in the West promote racial Supremacism I get accused of being anti-semitic but I am not even saying that all Jews are racist but most fail to take and stand against what their leadership is doing and that is what causes persecutions throughout history. Many Jews even admired the Rothschilds for their sucess and very few condemed them and when they destroyed Germany's economy and caused them to loose WWI the Nazis were able the capitalize on that to gain power.
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2009, 01:10:18 am »
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This many of stealing one's avatar begins to be really ridiculous.
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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2009, 01:48:44 am »
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I suspect - I cannot prove, but I suspect - that white/European/non-Jewish Zionism is actually the product of an anti-Semitism that doesn't want to express itself. What better way to be rid of a neighbor that one hates than to help him make payments on a home far removed from one's own? That it's the conservatives (the usual suspects) who are all the more strongly pro-Israel seems to somewhat justify my belief.
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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2009, 05:25:59 am »
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In the same way america belongs to the honkeys.
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« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2009, 09:32:40 am »
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I suspect - I cannot prove, but I suspect - that white/European/non-Jewish Zionism is actually the product of an anti-Semitism that doesn't want to express itself. What better way to be rid of a neighbor that one hates than to help him make payments on a home far removed from one's own? That it's the conservatives (the usual suspects) who are all the more strongly pro-Israel seems to somewhat justify my belief.

I suggest you're letting your imagination get the better of you
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« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2009, 10:17:02 am »
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I suspect - I cannot prove, but I suspect - that white/European/non-Jewish Zionism is actually the product of an anti-Semitism that doesn't want to express itself. What better way to be rid of a neighbor that one hates than to help him make payments on a home far removed from one's own? That it's the conservatives (the usual suspects) who are all the more strongly pro-Israel seems to somewhat justify my belief.

I personally just thinks it's some "bad conscience" concerning the Holocaust, a "bad conscience" which is so heavy to carry that it leads people in West to do too much about that, that's in that sense that I often speak of an "anti-Jew" paranoia. There may be what you talk about, but personally, I don't see at all as the most part, by far. Plus, I'm surprised that here you forgot that one part of the right of your country has also its religious beliefs to go along with that. But, actually, personally, to me, it is the "bad conscience" before everything.
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« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2009, 06:11:40 pm »
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3,5,7.  I know conflicting answers.  They deserve a homeland, but not the right to bully the Arab world.  The US also needs a presence in that region to counter terrorism.  Sounds right winged, I know, but in the end when push comes to shove I'm worried about another attack on our soil and having Israel there keeps potential threats in check.
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« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2009, 09:08:11 pm »
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having Israel there keeps potential threats in check.

Really? How?
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« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2009, 09:28:20 pm »
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1,2,7
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« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2009, 11:18:48 pm »
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anything that truly exists does not need the "right to exist" for what it's worth
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« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2009, 11:36:12 pm »
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anything that truly exists does not need the "right to exist" for what it's worth

This.
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« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2009, 11:55:28 pm »
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since I'm on a roll, let me say my critique more specifically,

From what lofty aspiration do the "rights" of state bureaucracies derive?  I hear this term all the time, like the "right" for states to own such and such weapons or the "right" to protect its interests and so on.  Do the rights of the state trump human rights if they come on conflict?  I hope Israeli policymakers are thinking more about their people's rights than their state's rights when they are authorizing violent measures. Hell, you have to work to bring it out of me since it sounds bad on paper, but I've been a fairly staunch critic of overuse of the term "rights"  for like 90% of what people use it for.  it creates such an ugly world where there's no possible compromise.  right to our land vs. right to have a homeland, right to life vs. right to choice blah humbug

I consider myself more neutral than anyone else I know to begin with because I think both the Isrealis and the Palestinians have extremely legitimate yet irresolvable claims...sort of like trying to divide a baby between two equal parents. 
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« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2009, 12:46:36 am »
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I don't.  I think Jewish people have a right to live peacefully in Palestine but don't have any right to carve out an apartheid-like zone in order to create a Jewish state.  Note that I don't support the right of the refugee camps that are Gaza and the West Bank to exist as a state either, as that would amount to supporting a terrorist state (which foreign powers prop up with our generous foreign aid contributions that feed an entire class of armed militants).  I think citizens of the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean regardless of religious or race have the right to exist freely and without bounds.
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