what if this is elections' scenario

[dunn]

if a state's pv is dem and the representatives majority is rep (or vice versa), woudnt you say it's their obligation to vote by the state's pv

[Platypus]

I know the delegates don't have a vote, but I though I should include them just to show that they are all Democrat

No probs with the pre-emption, it happens all the tme. I wish I had have refreshed the page though, instead of wasting my time, but as I said, my fault notr yours.

Also, I thought that DC did have a vote...Primarily because they have a vote in the actual election.

[Kghadial]

i believe that it is the US congressional delegation that votes (not state assemblies)

I am curious how many state delegations are different than this map. I do think it would cause riots in the streets of a given state if the reps from that state voted differently than their state's popular vote.

I do think a tie is quite a possibility. W. Virginia and N. Hampshire are at this point lean Kerry.

Or Nevada could replace W. Virginia going for Kerry and still we have 269-269 tie. Or New Mexico could go Bush and Nevada and NH and WV go Kerry then:  269-269 tie.  Or NH could stay Bush, and NV and WV go Kerry and Bush picks up one of Maine's EV votes.  Or anyone of one of the systems above and Arizona and Minnesota change hands. Or Ohio and NH, and Minn and N. Mexico could all swith and we still end up with a 269-269 tie.  

What I'm trying to say is don't take the 2000 map as gospel. Sure perhaps NH and WV lean Kerry, but other states can switch too. Its not that simple. There are 2^50 combinations of how states could end up, most of them aren't going to be ties.  Sure about half the states are complete and utter slam dunks thats still 2^25 combinations .  And most of them are not ties either.

Don't worry ... its all good

[Gustaf]

if a state's pv is dem and the representatives majority is rep (or vice versa), woudnt you say it's their obligation to vote by the state's pv

I would, the reps in question wouldn't...

[Emsworth]

I know, there's no tie-breaker...now, let's assume that the Dems win back a couple of state delqagtions (unlikely, I know) making it 25-25. THEN what ahppens? ...

But with today's party structure what would break a tie? Imagine a Rep. giving the presidency to the other party...he would get SO hated.

It seems that intricate hypotheticals are much-beloved. Perhaps we could complicate matters further: the Senate is tied, and the Vice President would be unable to cast a casting vote - though the constitution states clearly, "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided," the Twelfth Amendment provides, "The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two- thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States," - one would note that a "a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice," therefore meaning that 51 Senators - not 50 Senators plus the Vice President - would be necessary to choose the Vice President. The Country would then be left with neither a President nor a Vice President, and the Speaker of the House of Representatives, if eligible, would become President for the interim.

[Gustaf]

I know, there's no tie-breaker...now, let's assume that the Dems win back a couple of state delqagtions (unlikely, I know) making it 25-25. THEN what ahppens? ...

But with today's party structure what would break a tie? Imagine a Rep. giving the presidency to the other party...he would get SO hated.

It seems that intricate hypotheticals are much-beloved. Perhaps we could complicate matters further: the Senate is tied, and the Vice President would be unable to cast a casting vote - though the constitution states clearly, "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided," the Twelfth Amendment provides, "The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two- thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States," - one would note that a "a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice," therefore meaning that 51 Senators - not 50 Senators plus the Vice President - would be necessary to choose the Vice President. The Country would then be left with neither a President nor a Vice President, and the Speaker of the House of Representatives, if eligible, would become President for the interim.

When does the interim end? And what's the time limit? I mean, if the speaker is made president, can the House no longer elect one?

[Emsworth]

When does the interim end? And what's the time limit? I mean, if the speaker is made president, can the House no longer elect one?

According to the Twentieth Amendment:

If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

Therefore, if the Senate arrives at a choice for the Vice President, then that person would take over from the Speaker. Of course, if the House elects a President, then that person would take over the Presidency. Otherwise, the Speaker would remain President.

The Speaker would have to resign as both Representative and Speaker to become Acting President; if the Speaker comes from a tied delegation, then that delegation would obviously change parties; while if the Speaker would come from a delegation in which one party had a one-vote majority, that state would have a tied vote. Thus, the Speaker's Presidency could lead to the election of a president.

[Gustaf]

When does the interim end? And what's the time limit? I mean, if the speaker is made president, can the House no longer elect one?

According to the Twentieth Amendment:

If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

Therefore, if the Senate arrives at a choice for the Vice President, then that person would take over from the Speaker. Of course, if the House elects a President, then that person would take over the Presidency. Otherwise, the Speaker would remain President.

The Speaker would have to resign as both Representative and Speaker to become Acting President; if the Speaker comes from a tied delegation, then that delegation would obviously change parties; while if the Speaker would come from a delegation in which one party had a one-vote majority, that state would have a tied vote. Thus, the Speaker's Presidency could lead to the election of a president.

Yeah, and he could possibly give the presidency to the opposition. In such an event could he postpone it, by stepping down or something? Or make a swich in speakers or whatever?

[angus]

yeah, I meant congressional delegation.  sorry.  Bush wins.

you people made lots of comments.  Actually Hamilton gave Aaron Burr a hard time after that election.  Hamilton was killed.  Like anna lind.  Burr was discredited.    This is how we settle those things.

That's:  the wealthy elitist capitalist banker was killed by the populist New Jersey kid.  Okay, boys and girls?  There's always a solution.

Whoa.  it occurs to me that the preceding could be seriously misinterpreted.  I am not suggesting anything of the sort.  glad I caught that.  I apologize if I offended anyone.

[Emsworth]

Yeah, and he could possibly give the presidency to the opposition. In such an event could he postpone it, by stepping down or something? Or make a swich in speakers or whatever?

3 US 20: The only evidence of a refusal to accept, or of a resignation of the office of President or Vice President, shall be an instrument in writing, declaring the same, and subscribed by the person refusing to accept or resigning, as the case may be, and delivered into the office of the Secretary of State. The Speaker could deliver his refusal to the Secretyary of State, and would then not need to step down from the House.

[dunn]

yeah, I meant congressional delegation.  sorry.  Bush wins.

you people made lots of comments.  Actually Hamilton gave Aaron Burr a hard time after that election.  Hamilton was killed.  Like anna lind.  Burr was discredited.    This is how we settle those things.

That's:  the wealthy elitist capitalist banker was killed by the populist New Jersey kid.  Okay, boys and girls?  There's always a solution.

Whoa.  it occurs to me that the preceding could be seriously misinterpreted.  I am not suggesting anything of the sort.  glad I caught that.  I apologize if I offended anyone.

we accept

[opebo]

The House would give the Presidency to Bush and those who didn't like it would have to lump it.  Actually I would enjoy this scenario even more than an outright Bush victory - we get the same good governance, but with more pissed-off lefties!

[Gustaf]

Yeah, and he could possibly give the presidency to the opposition. In such an event could he postpone it, by stepping down or something? Or make a swich in speakers or whatever?

3 US 20: The only evidence of a refusal to accept, or of a resignation of the office of President or Vice President, shall be an instrument in writing, declaring the same, and subscribed by the person refusing to accept or resigning, as the case may be, and delivered into the office of the Secretary of State. The Speaker could deliver his refusal to the Secretyary of State, and would then not need to step down from the House.

Is there and end to the line of succession? I know that's VERY unlikely, butif there is could you end up without a president alltogether?

[Gustaf]

yeah, I meant congressional delegation.  sorry.  Bush wins.

you people made lots of comments.  Actually Hamilton gave Aaron Burr a hard time after that election.  Hamilton was killed.  Like anna lind.  Burr was discredited.    This is how we settle those things.

That's:  the wealthy elitist capitalist banker was killed by the populist New Jersey kid.  Okay, boys and girls?  There's always a solution.

Whoa.  it occurs to me that the preceding could be seriously misinterpreted.  I am not suggesting anything of the sort.  glad I caught that.  I apologize if I offended anyone.

I am not sure what Anna Lindh has to do with anything...lot of people get killed, many politicians are among them

[dunn]

Yeah, and he could possibly give the presidency to the opposition. In such an event could he postpone it, by stepping down or something? Or make a swich in speakers or whatever?

3 US 20: The only evidence of a refusal to accept, or of a resignation of the office of President or Vice President, shall be an instrument in writing, declaring the same, and subscribed by the person refusing to accept or resigning, as the case may be, and delivered into the office of the Secretary of State. The Speaker could deliver his refusal to the Secretyary of State, and would then not need to step down from the House.

Is there and end to the line of succession? I know that's VERY unlikely, butif there is could you end up without a president alltogether?

you hane the cabinet ministers by some order

[classical liberal]

This website has a listing of the order of succession:


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0101032.html

[dunn]

this is it:

The Vice President Richard Cheney
Speaker of the House John Dennis Hastert
President pro tempore of the Senate Ted Stevens
Secretary of State Colin Powell
Secretary of the Treasury John Snow
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld
Attorney General John Ashcroft
Secretary of the Interior Gale A. Norton
Secretary of Agriculture Ann M. Veneman
Secretary of Commerce Donald Evans
Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao
Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy G. Thompson
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Alphonso Jackson
Secretary of Transportation Norman Yoshio Mineta
Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham
Secretary of Education Roderick Paige
Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony J. Principi
Secretary of Homeland Security2 Tom Ridge

[Emsworth]

The Vice President Richard Cheney
Speaker of the House John Dennis Hastert
President pro tempore of the Senate Ted Stevens
Secretary of State Colin Powell
Secretary of the Treasury John Snow
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld
Attorney General John Ashcroft
Secretary of the Interior Gale A. Norton
Secretary of Agriculture Ann M. Veneman
Secretary of Commerce Donald Evans
Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao
Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy G. Thompson
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Alphonso Jackson
Secretary of Transportation Norman Yoshio Mineta
Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham
Secretary of Education Roderick Paige
Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony J. Principi
Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge

The HUD Secretary, Alphonso Jackson, is only Acting Secretary. He, therefore, does not form a part of the line of succession. Elaine Chao is not a natural-born citzen, so she is ineligible.

[angus]

ashcroft is sick.  read all about it

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-people-ashcroft.html

[Platypus]

We all knew he was sick politically, bit of bad news he's sick physically though.

[Emsworth]

We all knew he was sick politically, bit of bad news he's sick physically though.

He has gallstone pancreatitis.

[ilikeverin]

So, if a magic bomb exploded, and the fragments homed and killed:

GWB
Richard Cheney
Dennis Hastert
Ted Stevens
Colin Powell
John Snow
Donald H. Rumsfeld
&
John Ashcroft

Then we could have a female President and Vice-President

[Kghadial]

So, if a magic bomb exploded, and the fragments homed and killed:

GWB
Richard Cheney
Dennis Hastert
Ted Stevens
Colin Powell
John Snow
Donald H. Rumsfeld
&
John Ashcroft

Then we could have a female President and Vice-President

Actually then we'd have a Female President and she would be able to pick her Vice President. There is no corresponding list for Vice Presidents. For example if Dick Cheney has a heart attack and dies, then Dennis Hastert does NOT become the vice president. Bush gets to pick one and has to get Congress to agree. When Spiro Agnew resigned, Nixon got Ford to be accepted by Congress as VP. Then when Nixon resigned Ford become Pres. and then he went to Congress and made Rockefeller VP.

[muon2]

Yeah, and he could possibly give the presidency to the opposition. In such an event could he postpone it, by stepping down or something? Or make a swich in speakers or whatever?

3 US 20: The only evidence of a refusal to accept, or of a resignation of the office of President or Vice President, shall be an instrument in writing, declaring the same, and subscribed by the person refusing to accept or resigning, as the case may be, and delivered into the office of the Secretary of State. The Speaker could deliver his refusal to the Secretyary of State, and would then not need to step down from the House.

Is there and end to the line of succession? I know that's VERY unlikely, butif there is could you end up without a president alltogether?

you hane the cabinet ministers by some order

There was a bit of discussion in 2000 as well. There was some thought that if the legal wrangling was not concluded in time, the House could have been blocked from voting, and on Jan 20 the sucession sequence would matter. More than one media outlet discussed wheter Hastert would step down to be interim President, since next in line at that time was Sen. Thurmond.

[CollectiveInterest]

everybody preperd for the house, BUT On on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December one elector - does not matter which party - votes for the other guy. 270-268

what is America reaction

If the changed vote is to the candidate that would have won in the House (Republican presumably) it won't be viewed as a big deal. In fact the elector may be a sort of hero for saving the House from voting.

However, if it's a vote change that changes the outcome and it cuts against the GOP we will never hear the end of it. Republicans don't take losing well.