Regional & Local Fiscal Relief Act

[Marokai Backbeat]

I'm beginning to think we need more than 100 billion.

Did you see PS's projections, our deficit is now in excess of $2 Trillion dollars. Even I would say at some point you have to have some sanity return. We want a slow descent of the dollar, not a run on the dollar.

It's not my fault this body has no courage to raise taxes.

Cause we don't need to raise taxes. We need either the economy to recover soon, or basically "Call superman" cause will be screwed.

I'll save this debate for another bill. But needless to say this body needs a major reality check on revenue.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I'm beginning to think we need more than 100 billion.

Did you see PS's projections, our deficit is now in excess of $2 Trillion dollars. Even I would say at some point you have to have some sanity return. We want a slow descent of the dollar, not a run on the dollar.

It's not my fault this body has no courage to raise taxes.

Cause we don't need to raise taxes. We need either the economy to recover soon, or basically "Call superman" cause will be screwed.

I'll save this debate for another bill. But needless to say this body needs a major reality check on revenue.

I know but its ingrained in everyone's head that you don't raise taxes in a recession.

[Alexander Hamilton]

I'm beginning to think we need more than 100 billion.

Did you see PS's projections, our deficit is now in excess of $2 Trillion dollars. Even I would say at some point you have to have some sanity return. We want a slow descent of the dollar, not a run on the dollar.

It's not my fault this body has no courage to raise taxes.

Cause we don't need to raise taxes. We need either the economy to recover soon, or basically "Call superman" cause will be screwed.

I'll save this debate for another bill. But needless to say this body needs a major reality check on revenue.

I know but its ingrained in everyone's head that you don't raise taxes in a recession.

That was all that needed to be said.

[Purple State]

Now, at what point do I say that the bottom has fallen out of the economy and we plummet into a sea of despair? Or do we let the beat roll on...

[Marokai Backbeat]

I'm beginning to think we need more than 100 billion.

Did you see PS's projections, our deficit is now in excess of $2 Trillion dollars. Even I would say at some point you have to have some sanity return. We want a slow descent of the dollar, not a run on the dollar.

It's not my fault this body has no courage to raise taxes.

Cause we don't need to raise taxes. We need either the economy to recover soon, or basically "Call superman" cause will be screwed.

I'll save this debate for another bill. But needless to say this body needs a major reality check on revenue.

I know but its ingrained in everyone's head that you don't raise taxes in a recession.

That was all that needed to be said.

Yes and thank goodness we've never followed that philosophy in past economic troubles. It would have led to disaster!

Oh wait, except FDR. Almost 10 times. And a large one under Clinton at the tail-end of a recession.

[Alexander Hamilton]

I'm beginning to think we need more than 100 billion.

Did you see PS's projections, our deficit is now in excess of $2 Trillion dollars. Even I would say at some point you have to have some sanity return. We want a slow descent of the dollar, not a run on the dollar.

It's not my fault this body has no courage to raise taxes.

Cause we don't need to raise taxes. We need either the economy to recover soon, or basically "Call superman" cause will be screwed.

I'll save this debate for another bill. But needless to say this body needs a major reality check on revenue.

I know but its ingrained in everyone's head that you don't raise taxes in a recession.

That was all that needed to be said.

Yes and thank goodness we've never followed that philosophy in past economic troubles. It would have led to disaster!

Oh wait, except FDR. Almost 10 times. And a large one under Clinton at the tail-end of a recession.

The FDR obsession was old. He was an economically weak President.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Now, at what point do I say that the bottom has fallen out of the economy and we plummet into a sea of despair? Or do we let the beat roll on...

You need an exit strategy to get out of this quagmire. You should really consider timetables for withdrawal, of course you reserve the right to keep them secret.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I'm beginning to think we need more than 100 billion.

Did you see PS's projections, our deficit is now in excess of $2 Trillion dollars. Even I would say at some point you have to have some sanity return. We want a slow descent of the dollar, not a run on the dollar.

It's not my fault this body has no courage to raise taxes.

Cause we don't need to raise taxes. We need either the economy to recover soon, or basically "Call superman" cause will be screwed.

I'll save this debate for another bill. But needless to say this body needs a major reality check on revenue.

I know but its ingrained in everyone's head that you don't raise taxes in a recession.

That was all that needed to be said.

Yes and thank goodness we've never followed that philosophy in past economic troubles. It would have led to disaster!

Oh wait, except FDR. Almost 10 times. And a large one under Clinton at the tail-end of a recession.

The FDR obsession was old. He was an economically weak President.

I'd challenge you to a more in-depth discussion on that, but I know you'd never go through with it.

[Alexander Hamilton]

I'm beginning to think we need more than 100 billion.

Did you see PS's projections, our deficit is now in excess of $2 Trillion dollars. Even I would say at some point you have to have some sanity return. We want a slow descent of the dollar, not a run on the dollar.

It's not my fault this body has no courage to raise taxes.

Cause we don't need to raise taxes. We need either the economy to recover soon, or basically "Call superman" cause will be screwed.

I'll save this debate for another bill. But needless to say this body needs a major reality check on revenue.

I know but its ingrained in everyone's head that you don't raise taxes in a recession.

That was all that needed to be said.

Yes and thank goodness we've never followed that philosophy in past economic troubles. It would have led to disaster!

Oh wait, except FDR. Almost 10 times. And a large one under Clinton at the tail-end of a recession.

The FDR obsession was old. He was an economically weak President.

I'd challenge you to a more in-depth discussion on that, but I know you'd never go through with it.

I would go through with it. I just suspect that in the end you will resort to cheap personal attacks unrelated to the discussion at hand.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

FDR is really simple actually. He needed to do what Hitler had done and he got that chance in 1941. Unemployement was Zero, Inflation was Zero, Savings skyrocketed, and there was no output gap as the gov't was buying most of the manufactured products to fight the war.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Hamilton, I think people know that, where economic matters are concerned, I'm usually quite serious.

[Alexander Hamilton]

Hamilton, I think people know that, where economic matters are concerned, I'm usually quite serious.

Writing term papers for posts doesn't make your argument correct, it simply means you can write a lot of crap about whatever it is you are trying to say. Look at GPORTER's campaign thread. He has some long ass posts.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Hamilton, I think people know that, where economic matters are concerned, I'm usually quite serious.

Writing term papers for posts doesn't make your argument correct, it simply means you can write a lot of crap about whatever it is you are trying to say. Look at GPORTER's campaign thread. He has some long ass posts.

At-least MArokai isn't lieing about what the posts contain like Gporter.

[Vepres]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

[Alexander Hamilton]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

[Vepres]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

Do you think this Senate or President will do this? Seriously, the stigma against minor tax hikes is silly.

[Alexander Hamilton]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

Do you think this Senate or President will do this? Seriously, the stigma against minor tax hikes is silly.

I opposed afleitch's tax cut. I don't think we need to change the tax structure at all right now. We need to focus on aiding small businesses, not washed up corporations. This government needs to decide if it's going to support free trade and foreign slave labor and stop propping up uncompetitive companies, or if it is going to adopt pro-business policies that allow growth in our communities and for individuals to have more opportunities.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

You are both wrong.

Vepres: A weakening dollar is a symptom of the trade deficit. As the dollar goes down the Trade deficit shrinks. A higher dollar would send more money to China, not less. The dollar needs to fall to push exports back up in relation to imports.

Alex. You don't cut spending in a Recession they did that in 1936 and the economy dipped back down in 1937-1938 wiping out almost 5 years of improvements. Your national bank scares the hell out of me and would have no effect on the demand cycle. You don't mess with the financial sector when fear is the number one enemy.

[Alexander Hamilton]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

You are both wrong. NO

Alex. You don't cut spending in a Recession they did that in 1936 and the economy dipped back down in 1937-1938 wiping out almost 5 years of improvements. Your national bank scares the hell out of me and would have no effect on the demand cycle. You don't mess with the financial sector when fear is the number one enemy.

Cut spending, create a national bank, cycle that money back through loans, the new capital will create jobs, interest is paid back to the taxpayer and the cycle is repeated. The national bank would be a stable source of credit and capital that would stabilize the value of the Atlasian dollar. It would promote growth. 1936 was a depression, not a recession. Also, the spending at that time was so overwhelming that it had to be cut or else it would spiral out of control. The path we're heading on is letting spending spiral out of control. Keep adding to the debt and we will never get rid of this deficit. Eternal debt for Atlasia. We need a way to close the gap.

[Vepres]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

Do you think this Senate or President will do this? Seriously, the stigma against minor tax hikes is silly.

I opposed afleitch's tax cut. I don't think we need to change the tax structure at all right now. We need to focus on aiding small businesses, not washed up corporations. This government needs to decide if it's going to support free trade and foreign slave labor and stop propping up uncompetitive companies, or if it is going to adopt pro-business policies that allow growth in our communities and for individuals to have more opportunities.

I think a deficit this large is unreasonable and detrimental to economic growth. I also think that, while I oppose the government spending, now that it is out there, raising taxes is the best option. In fact, I considered a tax hike in my region before I knew we'd get enough money to pay off the deficit.

@ Yank: That is true, I didn't that through. However, I still disagree. A strong dollar is essential to American economic growth, especially considering many of the world's largest corporations are American. I mean seriously, we import Chinese goods and export debt, that is not good. We should raise taxes on some to pay down this deficit. Thus, the economy is based on real money not imaginary money borrowed from China.

Now, higher taxes are essential and the only option considering we have a left-wing President. On the other hand, companies should be encouraged to build things here. So yes, I agree the trade deficit is a problem, but that isn't what I'm debating. I think our taxes are TOO low for the given climate, and I would rather have higher taxes and a balanced budget, or at least lower budget deficit than a 2 Trillion dollar deficit.

See, that $2 trillion that have been spent through deficit spending should not exist. In essence, this means that 4% of our economy this year was government spending money that shouldn't exist. I think this in fact contributes to the trade deficit because instead of us exporting goods and services to China, we are exporting debt, which will only benefit China and hurt us in the long run. This is not sustainable, and creates the illusion of economic growth when in fact it is not solid in anyway.

Anyway, this is not what this bill is about, so I leave you with this LONG response

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

You are both wrong. NO

Alex. You don't cut spending in a Recession they did that in 1936 and the economy dipped back down in 1937-1938 wiping out almost 5 years of improvements. Your national bank scares the hell out of me and would have no effect on the demand cycle. You don't mess with the financial sector when fear is the number one enemy.

Cut spending, create a national bank, cycle that money back through loans, the new capital will create jobs, interest is paid back to the taxpayer and the cycle is repeated. The national bank would be a stable source of credit and capital that would stabilize the value of the Atlasian dollar. It would promote growth. 1936 was a depression, not a recession. Also, the spending at that time was so overwhelming that it had to be cut or else it would spiral out of control. The path we're heading on is letting spending spiral out of control. Keep adding to the debt and we will never get rid of this deficit. Eternal debt for Atlasia. We need a way to close the gap.

Sounds like Hooverian economics. No thanks. I should have said deflation instead of recession but whatever. You don't cut spending at times like this. The downturn in 1937 was a direct result of the cuts in spending and the Fed tighening the money supply.

It won't work Hamilton because people won't take loans if they fear there job will be cut tommorrow. You need confidence and all your plan will do is kill the traditional banks and lead to more Unemployement.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

Do you think this Senate or President will do this? Seriously, the stigma against minor tax hikes is silly.

I opposed afleitch's tax cut. I don't think we need to change the tax structure at all right now. We need to focus on aiding small businesses, not washed up corporations. This government needs to decide if it's going to support free trade and foreign slave labor and stop propping up uncompetitive companies, or if it is going to adopt pro-business policies that allow growth in our communities and for individuals to have more opportunities.

I think a deficit this large is unreasonable and detrimental to economic growth. I also think that, while I oppose the government spending, now that it is out there, raising taxes is the best option. In fact, I considered a tax hike in my region before I knew we'd get enough money to pay off the deficit.

@ Yank: That is true, I didn't that through. However, I still disagree. A strong dollar is essential to American economic growth, especially considering many of the world's largest corporations are American. I mean seriously, we import Chinese goods and export debt, that is not good. We should raise taxes on some to pay down this deficit. Thus, the economy is based on real money not imaginary money borrowed from China.

Now, higher taxes are essential and the only option considering we have a left-wing President. On the other hand, companies should be encouraged to build things here. So yes, I agree the trade deficit is a problem, but that isn't what I'm debating. I think our taxes are TOO low for the given climate, and I would rather have higher taxes and a balanced budget, or at least lower budget deficit than a 2 Trillion dollar deficit.

See, that $2 trillion that have been spent through deficit spending should not exist. In essence, this means that 4% of our economy this year was government spending money that shouldn't exist. I think this in fact contributes to the trade deficit because instead of us exporting goods and services to China, we are exporting debt, which will only benefit China and hurt us in the long run. This is not sustainable, and creates the illusion of economic growth when in fact it is not solid in anyway.

Anyway, this is not what this bill is about, so I leave you with this LONG response

I don't know what to say. I will only say that the dollar's decline was inevitable by the late 90's. Its a naturally correcting process and the dollar is overvalued. THe dollar declining will solve the Trade gap, increase exports, create growth and allow the world economy to rebalance. The dollar currently is over-valued and nothing will stop it from declining. It is much easier to achieve a budget surplus if you have a trade surplus.

That 4% of borrowed money is necessary to close the output gap(production-consumers willingness to buy). And the falling dollar will help manufacturing recover as exports rise.

[Vepres]

I agree, taxes need to be raised in the short term. There's no excuse to have this large of a budget gap, and since we're in a recession we can't lower spending, at least not with the current President and Senate.

Higher taxes do have their benefits, they allow the government to lower the deficit, thus strengthening the dollar and keeping more money in the Atlasian economy instead of China's treasury.

Cut spending, create a national bank.

Do you think this Senate or President will do this? Seriously, the stigma against minor tax hikes is silly.

I opposed afleitch's tax cut. I don't think we need to change the tax structure at all right now. We need to focus on aiding small businesses, not washed up corporations. This government needs to decide if it's going to support free trade and foreign slave labor and stop propping up uncompetitive companies, or if it is going to adopt pro-business policies that allow growth in our communities and for individuals to have more opportunities.

I think a deficit this large is unreasonable and detrimental to economic growth. I also think that, while I oppose the government spending, now that it is out there, raising taxes is the best option. In fact, I considered a tax hike in my region before I knew we'd get enough money to pay off the deficit.

@ Yank: That is true, I didn't that through. However, I still disagree. A strong dollar is essential to American economic growth, especially considering many of the world's largest corporations are American. I mean seriously, we import Chinese goods and export debt, that is not good. We should raise taxes on some to pay down this deficit. Thus, the economy is based on real money not imaginary money borrowed from China.

Now, higher taxes are essential and the only option considering we have a left-wing President. On the other hand, companies should be encouraged to build things here. So yes, I agree the trade deficit is a problem, but that isn't what I'm debating. I think our taxes are TOO low for the given climate, and I would rather have higher taxes and a balanced budget, or at least lower budget deficit than a 2 Trillion dollar deficit.

See, that $2 trillion that have been spent through deficit spending should not exist. In essence, this means that 4% of our economy this year was government spending money that shouldn't exist. I think this in fact contributes to the trade deficit because instead of us exporting goods and services to China, we are exporting debt, which will only benefit China and hurt us in the long run. This is not sustainable, and creates the illusion of economic growth when in fact it is not solid in anyway.

Anyway, this is not what this bill is about, so I leave you with this LONG response

I don't know what to say. I will only say that the dollar's decline was inevitable by the late 90's. Its a naturally correcting process and the dollar is overvalued. THe dollar declining will solve the Trade gap, increase exports, create growth and allow the world economy to rebalance. The dollar currently is over-valued and nothing will stop it from declining. It is much easier to achieve a budget surplus if you have a trade surplus.

That 4% of borrowed money is necessary to close the output gap(production-consumers willingness to buy). And the falling dollar will help manufacturing recover as exports rise.

I sort of stumbled over my words in that post.

Suffice to say, deficit spending is not something I am fond of. On the issue of trade deficits, why not enact pro-market reforms, and provide financial incentives for businesses to build factories here?

Anyhow, you and I probably agree on 75% of this anyway, so let's save this for later, after all, I'm no Senator, yet

[Vepres]

I think a deficit this large is unreasonable and detrimental to economic growth. I also think that, while I oppose the government spending, now that it is out there, raising taxes is the best option. In fact, I considered a tax hike in my region before I knew we'd get enough money to pay off the deficit.

@ Yank: That is true, I didn't that through. However, I still disagree. A strong dollar is essential to American economic growth, especially considering many of the world's largest corporations are American. I mean seriously, we import Chinese goods and export debt, that is not good. We should raise taxes on some to pay down this deficit. Thus, the economy is based on real money not imaginary money borrowed from China.

Now, higher taxes are essential and the only option considering we have a left-wing President. On the other hand, companies should be encouraged to build things here. So yes, I agree the trade deficit is a problem, but that isn't what I'm debating. I think our taxes are TOO low for the given climate, and I would rather have higher taxes and a balanced budget, or at least lower budget deficit than a 2 Trillion dollar deficit.

See, that $2 trillion that have been spent through deficit spending should not exist. In essence, this means that 4% of our economy this year was government spending money that shouldn't exist. I think this in fact contributes to the trade deficit because instead of us exporting goods and services to China, we are exporting debt, which will only benefit China and hurt us in the long run. This is not sustainable, and creates the illusion of economic growth when in fact it is not solid in anyway.

Anyway, this is not what this bill is about, so I leave you with this LONG response

Bleh, this is so poorly constructed.

[Fritz]

Senators have 24 hours to object to the amendment before it is adopted.

I object to the amendment.

I have seen no analysis of the proposed numbers (and I don't have time to do it myself at this moment).  And, I think this needs to be voted upon.