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politicaladdict
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« on: October 10, 2009, 01:36:54 am »
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Here's another board about abortion.

Was Hitler pro-life?

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id15.html
Hitler and Abortion

When the Nazis came to power in 1933 one of the first acts Hitler did was to legalize abortion. By 1935 Germany with 65 million people was the place where over 500,000 abortions were being performed each year. Although Hitler and his government encourged Aryan women to produce a lot of children, he left the matter of abortion and all its facets in the hands of a decidely pro- abortion medical establishment. Even in the midst of Nazi propaganda aimed at increasing the Aryan population, scores of Aryan women still chose to abort their unborn children. The medical publication Deutsches Aerzleblatt reported the abortions in Germany each year reached a half-million.

Further, a Nazi decree of October 19, 1941 established abortion on demand as the official policy of Poland. Hitler, however, expressed dissatisfaction with this policy. Abortion, he believed, should NOT be limited to Poland. He therefore ordered that abortion be expanded to all populations under the control of the "Ministry of the Occupied Territories of the East."

On July 22, 1942, the Fuhrer exhibited a highly positive attitude towards abortion as an indispensable method of dealing with the non-German populations in countries under Nazi control. "In view of the large families of the native populations," he asserted, "it could only suit us if girls and women there had as many abortions as possible." Hitler also personally announced that he "would personally shoot" any "such idiot" who "tried to put into practice such an order (forbidding abortion) in the occupied Eastern territories.

Despite contemporary attempts to characterize Hitler as opposed to abortion, the historical evidence clearly and overwhelmingly supports only one possible conclusion: Hitler and his regime were adamantly pro-abortion. To depict Hitler as anti-abortion is a ludicrous as calling him anti-genocide or pro- Jewish. Both Hitler and his government had little regard for human life perceived as subpar, whether born or preborn.

"Questions

1. If Hitler was opposed to abortion, why didn't he demand that Germany's strong law protective of human life before birth (enacted in 1871) be ratained?

2. If Hitler was opposed to abortion, why did he leave the matter of abortion in the hands of the most vociferous pro-abortion physicians and medical organizations in Germany?

3. If Hitler was opposed to abortion, why did he permit the establishment of guidelines and procedures for legal abortion in close conformity to those developed by the Berlin Chamber of Physicians, a prominent advocate of permisssive abortion under the guise of health?

4. If the Nazi government had such restrictive laws on abortion, why were there at least half-a-million abortions performed annually in Germany?

5. If Hitler was opposed to abortion, why did he say that 'in view of the large families of native population it could only suit us if girls and women there had as many abortions as possible'?

6. If Hitler was opposed to abortion, why did he order that abortion on demand be instituted as the prevailing policy for all countries under Nazi domination?

7. If Hitler was opposed to abortion, why did he threaten to shoot anyone who attempted to forbid abortions in Nazi occupied areas?

8. If the Nazi government was opposed to abortion, why did it issue an endless series of decrees legalizing the destruction of the unborn throughout the Eastern territories?" At risk of stating the obvious, some (perhaps, many) of the aborted were JEWS.
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2009, 02:11:30 am »
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Of equal irrelevance, George HW Bush was once pro-choice, and Ted Kennedy was once anti-abortion.
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politicaladdict
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2009, 02:27:12 am »
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Of equal irrelevance, George HW Bush was once pro-choice, and Ted Kennedy was once anti-abortion.


Liberals are pro-choice and Ted Kennedy became more liberal despite already being one.
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2009, 04:38:01 am »
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When the Nazis came to power in 1933 one of the first acts Hitler did was to legalize abortion.
No.
Quote
By 1935 Germany with 65 million people was the place where over 500,000 abortions were being performed each year.
Unlikely.
Quote
Although Hitler and his government encourged Aryan women to produce a lot of children, he left the matter of abortion and all its facets in the hands of a decidely pro- abortion medical establishment. Even in the midst of Nazi propaganda aimed at increasing the Aryan population, scores of Aryan women still chose to abort their unborn children.
In a sense... not in the sense the author wants you to take, though.
Quote
The medical publication Deutsches Aerzleblatt reported the abortions in Germany each year reached a half-million.
That would presumably be an alarmist guess at the number of illegal abortions being conducted, and not by medical practitioners either but by your local Engelmacherin.

Quote
Further, a Nazi decree of October 19, 1941 established abortion on demand as the official policy of Poland. Hitler, however, expressed dissatisfaction with this policy. Abortion, he believed, should NOT be limited to Poland. He therefore ordered that abortion be expanded to all populations under the control of the "Ministry of the Occupied Territories of the East."

On July 22, 1942, the Fuhrer exhibited a highly positive attitude towards abortion as an indispensable method of dealing with the non-German populations in countries under Nazi control. "In view of the large families of the native populations," he asserted, "it could only suit us if girls and women there had as many abortions as possible." Hitler also personally announced that he "would personally shoot" any "such idiot" who "tried to put into practice such an order (forbidding abortion) in the occupied Eastern territories.
Broadly correct.

Quote
Despite contemporary attempts to characterize Hitler as opposed to abortion, the historical evidence clearly and overwhelmingly supports only one possible conclusion: Hitler and his regime were adamantly pro-abortion. To depict Hitler as anti-abortion is a ludicrous as calling him anti-genocide or pro- Jewish.
Lol.
Quote
Both Hitler and his government had little regard for human life perceived as subpar, whether born or preborn.
Exactly. They considered the unborn as just as alive as the born.

Quote
1. If Hitler was opposed to abortion, why didn't he demand that Germany's strong law protective of human life before birth (enacted in 1871) be ratained?
1871 (to 1926) law: Maximum sentence five years. 1943 (to 1945) law: Automatic sentence: Death. This is for abortions of Aryan Germans, of course. The same law officially legalized abortions for jews and foreign slave workers. And even for German women raped by Slavic or Afro-American (but not White American or White British) allied soldiers.
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2009, 04:43:36 am »
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Why are we supposed to care what Hitler thought about abortion? If you're just bringing it up as historical trivia, fine; but it demonstrates nothing about the morality of abortion. You might as well ask whether Joseph Stalin loved opera.
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2009, 05:03:42 am »
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Quote
Despite contemporary attempts to characterize Hitler as opposed to abortion, the historical evidence clearly and overwhelmingly supports only one possible conclusion: Hitler and his regime were adamantly pro-abortion. To depict Hitler as anti-abortion is a ludicrous as calling him anti-genocide or pro- Jewish.
Lol.
Quote
Both Hitler and his government had little regard for human life perceived as subpar, whether born or preborn.
Exactly. They considered the unborn as just as alive as the born.

Correct. The Nazis believed that life began at conception. They also believed that some life shouldn't exist.

They didn't believe in the "woman's right to choose" though... they believed in the Fhrer's right to choose who deserves to live and who deserves to die.
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2009, 08:20:01 am »
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Quote
Despite contemporary attempts to characterize Hitler as opposed to abortion, the historical evidence clearly and overwhelmingly supports only one possible conclusion: Hitler and his regime were adamantly pro-abortion. To depict Hitler as anti-abortion is a ludicrous as calling him anti-genocide or pro- Jewish.
Lol.
Quote
Both Hitler and his government had little regard for human life perceived as subpar, whether born or preborn.
Exactly. They considered the unborn as just as alive as the born.

Correct. The Nazis believed that life began at conception. They also believed that some life shouldn't exist.

They didn't believe in the "woman's right to choose" though... they believed in the Fhrer's right to choose who deserves to live and who deserves to die.

Why are we supposed to care what Hitler thought about abortion? If you're just bringing it up as historical trivia, fine; but it demonstrates nothing about the morality of abortion. You might as well ask whether Joseph Stalin loved opera.

Nothing to add.
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2009, 10:34:18 am »
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I wish I could find some sort of single image to post about how inbreds like PA use Hitler for every absurd position they want to defend and to discredit every political figure they dislike.

There has to be a facepalm or something out there that specifically addresses this.
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2009, 11:08:02 am »
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Any idea what Hitler's stance on campaign finance reform, global warming and stem-cell research were?
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politicaladdict
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 04:12:47 pm »
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Any idea what Hitler's stance on campaign finance reform, global warming and stem-cell research were?

I dont know that, there's gonna be another thread about how Hitler was an environmentalist.
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politicaladdict
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 04:15:20 pm »
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Quote
Despite contemporary attempts to characterize Hitler as opposed to abortion, the historical evidence clearly and overwhelmingly supports only one possible conclusion: Hitler and his regime were adamantly pro-abortion. To depict Hitler as anti-abortion is a ludicrous as calling him anti-genocide or pro- Jewish.
Lol.
Quote
Both Hitler and his government had little regard for human life perceived as subpar, whether born or preborn.
Exactly. They considered the unborn as just as alive as the born.

Correct. The Nazis believed that life began at conception. They also believed that some life shouldn't exist.

They didn't believe in the "woman's right to choose" though... they believed in the Fhrer's right to choose who deserves to live and who deserves to die.

You don't?

And why are there so many laws to legalize abortion.

He might have left it up to a board to decide, but still, there was legalized abortion for even Aryan women.

It's certainly not the abortion only allowed if life threatened.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 04:21:08 pm by politicaladdict »Logged
politicaladdict
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2009, 04:19:24 pm »
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When the Nazis came to power in 1933 one of the first acts Hitler did was to legalize abortion.
No.
Quote
By 1935 Germany with 65 million people was the place where over 500,000 abortions were being performed each year.
Unlikely.
Quote
Although Hitler and his government encourged Aryan women to produce a lot of children, he left the matter of abortion and all its facets in the hands of a decidely pro- abortion medical establishment. Even in the midst of Nazi propaganda aimed at increasing the Aryan population, scores of Aryan women still chose to abort their unborn children.
In a sense... not in the sense the author wants you to take, though.
Quote
The medical publication Deutsches Aerzleblatt reported the abortions in Germany each year reached a half-million.
That would presumably be an alarmist guess at the number of illegal abortions being conducted, and not by medical practitioners either but by your local Engelmacherin.

Quote
Further, a Nazi decree of October 19, 1941 established abortion on demand as the official policy of Poland. Hitler, however, expressed dissatisfaction with this policy. Abortion, he believed, should NOT be limited to Poland. He therefore ordered that abortion be expanded to all populations under the control of the "Ministry of the Occupied Territories of the East."

On July 22, 1942, the Fuhrer exhibited a highly positive attitude towards abortion as an indispensable method of dealing with the non-German populations in countries under Nazi control. "In view of the large families of the native populations," he asserted, "it could only suit us if girls and women there had as many abortions as possible." Hitler also personally announced that he "would personally shoot" any "such idiot" who "tried to put into practice such an order (forbidding abortion) in the occupied Eastern territories.
Broadly correct.

Quote
Despite contemporary attempts to characterize Hitler as opposed to abortion, the historical evidence clearly and overwhelmingly supports only one possible conclusion: Hitler and his regime were adamantly pro-abortion. To depict Hitler as anti-abortion is a ludicrous as calling him anti-genocide or pro- Jewish.
Lol.
Quote
Both Hitler and his government had little regard for human life perceived as subpar, whether born or preborn.
Exactly. They considered the unborn as just as alive as the born.

Quote
1. If Hitler was opposed to abortion, why didn't he demand that Germany's strong law protective of human life before birth (enacted in 1871) be ratained?
1871 (to 1926) law: Maximum sentence five years. 1943 (to 1945) law: Automatic sentence: Death. This is for abortions of Aryan Germans, of course. The same law officially legalized abortions for jews and foreign slave workers. And even for German women raped by Slavic or Afro-American (but not White American or White British) allied soldiers.


Yeah that might be true that there were alot of illegal procedures done for abortion, but what are all the laws Hitler put in and I notice there was another law you said have had "death penalty" betueen 1943-1945? Why so late.

And if that wasn't an abortion law he enacted at the beginning than what was it?
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2009, 04:20:03 pm »
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlerAteSugar

Whichever is more your speed, they both make the same point: "Hitler did it, therefore it's bad" is a terrible argument.
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2009, 04:52:10 pm »
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Any idea what Hitler's stance on campaign finance reform, global warming and stem-cell research were?

I dont know that, there's gonna be another thread about how Hitler was an environmentalist.

Don't.
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2009, 04:53:08 pm »
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Why are we supposed to care what Hitler thought about abortion? If you're just bringing it up as historical trivia, fine; but it demonstrates nothing about the morality of abortion. You might as well ask whether Joseph Stalin loved opera.
^^^^^^
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2009, 06:05:16 pm »
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I hate you.
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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2009, 01:25:32 am »
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Okay, so Hitler was a liberal, so thus liberal is bad.  Hitler was pro-choice.  Pro-choice is bad.  Hitler was an environmentalist.  Environmentalist is bad.  Garble garble.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 03:47:05 am »
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And why are there so many laws to legalize abortion.
What? When? Where? What the hell are you trying to talk about?
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He might have left it up to a board to decide, but still, there was legalized abortion for even Aryan women.
No.
Quote
It's certainly not the abortion only allowed if life threatened.
Actually, yes it's EXACTLY that from 1927 (by court decision btw) to 1935, when it was abolished and abortion was once again illegal without exception (no, actually. Just without exceptions for the common populace. With exceptions where it was totally legal - mentally ill mothers, mothers with genetically transmittable diseases. This was the age of Eugenics, and not in Germany only.)

There was no law change addressing abortion in any way or form in Germany in 1933 to the best of my knowledge. If there was, it would have been an increase in penalty - there were several throughout the nazi era (eventually ending in the death penalty at the time nazi policy was entirely off its rocker even by its own prewar standards on every other issue as well), and I don't know the years.
Any idea what Hitler's stance on campaign finance reform, global warming and stem-cell research were?

I dont know that
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LMAO!

You must be pretty dumb.
Quote
there's gonna be another thread about how Hitler was an environmentalist.
Sort of true, actually. Not in the modern sense, of course. He was also a vegetarian.
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« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2009, 05:38:18 am »
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I'd just like to add to what Lewis said and point out that Sweden enacted a law about compulsory sterilization of inferior elements of the population, like gypses and mentally handicapped people in the 30s and it was supported by all major parties (except the communists, I think).
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 06:35:57 am »
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I'd just like to add to what Lewis said and point out that Sweden enacted a law about compulsory sterilization of inferior elements of the population, like gypses and mentally handicapped people in the 30s and it was supported by all major parties (except the communists, I think).

OMG I'd never have expected this from Sweden... Shocked
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



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« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2009, 07:55:37 am »
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That sort of thing, or at least arguments in favour of it, was very common in the early 20th century.
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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2009, 07:58:26 am »
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Hmm.  As I type this I've only just gotten back here myself.
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2009, 08:02:59 am »
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I'd just like to add to what Lewis said and point out that Sweden enacted a law about compulsory sterilization of inferior elements of the population, like gypses and mentally handicapped people in the 30s and it was supported by all major parties (except the communists, I think).

OMG I'd never have expected this from Sweden... Shocked

Taken from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Sweden)

"In Sweden, the "Sterilization Act of 1934" provided for the voluntary sterilization of some mental patients. The law was passed while the Swedish Social Democratic Party was in power, though it was also supported by all other political parties in Parliament at the time, as well as the Lutheran Church and much of the medical profession.[96] From about 1934 to until 1975, Sweden sterilized more than 62,000 people, with Herman Lundborg in the lead of the project.[97] Sweden sterilized more people than any other European state except Nazi Germany.[98] More people were sterilized in 1948 than any other year."

My boldings. The State Institute for Eugenics was not abolished in Sweden until the 70s.
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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2009, 08:44:15 am »
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Abortion was illegal in Nazi Germany, as it had been under Weimar, and as it was in the FRG until 1976. In fact the Nazis made abortion a capital offense in 1943.
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