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Author Topic: The Strategic Registration Amendment [Passed to Regions]  (Read 9049 times)
tmthforu94
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« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2009, 08:32:11 pm »
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Nay
February throughs things off, so there could be people who would have to wait longer than others. While that isn't a huge deal, it is still unfair.
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« Reply #101 on: October 18, 2009, 04:52:26 am »
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2 Ayes, 3 Nays, 1 Abstaining..

We can do better than 6/10, come on.
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« Reply #102 on: October 18, 2009, 05:51:59 am »
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I don't accept that the so-called "free move" actually exists at all at present, nor that there exists a legal basis for it. It is a matter for the SoFA to enforce the legal reality and a matter for legal challenge if this is not done.
I disagree. The rule is that people may change their state of registration ("move") once every so and so often. An original registration is not a "move". The current interpretation is correct. It's only the misconception that this represents a "free move" that is throwing things off.

Quote
If fellow Senators want an end to strategic registration then the only manner to really accomplish it is through ending the current system of regional Senate seats - rendering such strategic registration pointless.
Absolutely.
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« Reply #103 on: October 18, 2009, 06:11:54 am »
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I don't accept that the so-called "free move" actually exists at all at present, nor that there exists a legal basis for it. It is a matter for the SoFA to enforce the legal reality and a matter for legal challenge if this is not done.
I disagree. The rule is that people may change their state of registration ("move") once every so and so often. An original registration is not a "move". The current interpretation is correct. It's only the misconception that this represents a "free move" that is throwing things off.

I agree that the original registration is not a "move" - but I think that's irrelevant.

Quote from: 7th Amendment
Persons may only change their State of registration once every sixty days.

The text refers to changing the State of registration, not "moving". I don't understand how any subsequent registration (fewer than 60 days after the original registration), purporting to give a different State, wouldn't fall foul of this provision.
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« Reply #104 on: October 18, 2009, 06:12:35 am »
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I don't accept that the so-called "free move" actually exists at all at present, nor that there exists a legal basis for it. It is a matter for the SoFA to enforce the legal reality and a matter for legal challenge if this is not done.
I disagree. The rule is that people may change their state of registration ("move") once every so and so often. An original registration is not a "move". The current interpretation is correct. It's only the misconception that this represents a "free move" that is throwing things off.

I agree that the original registration is not a "move" - but I think that's irrelevant.

Quote from: 7th Amendment
Persons may only change their State of registration once every sixty days.

The text refers to changing the State of registration, not "moving". I don't understand how any subsequent registration (fewer than 60 days after the original registration), purporting to give a different State, wouldn't fall foul of this provision.

An initial registration isn't a change.
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« Reply #105 on: October 18, 2009, 06:20:58 am »
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I don't accept that the so-called "free move" actually exists at all at present, nor that there exists a legal basis for it. It is a matter for the SoFA to enforce the legal reality and a matter for legal challenge if this is not done.
I disagree. The rule is that people may change their state of registration ("move") once every so and so often. An original registration is not a "move". The current interpretation is correct. It's only the misconception that this represents a "free move" that is throwing things off.

I agree that the original registration is not a "move" - but I think that's irrelevant.

Quote from: 7th Amendment
Persons may only change their State of registration once every sixty days.

The text refers to changing the State of registration, not "moving". I don't understand how any subsequent registration (fewer than 60 days after the original registration), purporting to give a different State, wouldn't fall foul of this provision.

An initial registration isn't a change.

Of course it is. It is a change in one's State of registration - from not being registered anywhere to being registered wherever. The evidence is the changes made to the voter rolls when new registerees arise.

If the first registration isn't a change, then one could make a nonsense surely of other aspects of electoral law. One could presumably vote without being registered anywhere - as an initial registration apparently doesn't change one's registration; therefore one would be as valid before being registered as after.
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #106 on: October 18, 2009, 06:22:22 am »
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I don't accept that the so-called "free move" actually exists at all at present, nor that there exists a legal basis for it. It is a matter for the SoFA to enforce the legal reality and a matter for legal challenge if this is not done.
I disagree. The rule is that people may change their state of registration ("move") once every so and so often. An original registration is not a "move". The current interpretation is correct. It's only the misconception that this represents a "free move" that is throwing things off.

I agree that the original registration is not a "move" - but I think that's irrelevant.

Quote from: 7th Amendment
Persons may only change their State of registration once every sixty days.

The text refers to changing the State of registration, not "moving". I don't understand how any subsequent registration (fewer than 60 days after the original registration), purporting to give a different State, wouldn't fall foul of this provision.

An initial registration isn't a change.

Of course it is. It is a change in one's State of registration - from not being registered anywhere to being registered wherever. The evidence is the changes made to the voter rolls when new registerees arise.

If the first registration isn't a change, then one could make a nonsense surely of other aspects of electoral law. One could presumably vote without being registered anywhere - as an initial registration apparently doesn't change one's registration.

No. This is a voter registration. Not a move. I think it's safe to say I registered to vote just fine without changing states, and I only change my voter registration when I move. You have to be registered to change it. How can you change a nonexistent?
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« Reply #107 on: October 18, 2009, 06:28:53 am »
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No. This is a voter registration. Not a move.

Yeah, if you read my comments, you'll find I don't necessarily disagree with that point.

I think it's safe to say I registered to vote just fine without changing states, and I only change my voter registration when I move.

You may well have initially registered to vote without moving States - however that's irrelevant.

What's important is that one can't initially register without changing one's State of registration - from nothing to something. That is a change, the most fundamental and important change possible.
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #108 on: October 18, 2009, 06:33:02 am »
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I think it's safe to say I registered to vote just fine without changing states, and I only change my voter registration when I move.

You may well have initially registered to vote without moving States - however that's irrelevant.

What's important is that one can't initially register without changing one's State of registration - from nothing to something. That is a change, the most fundamental and important change possible.

I do not believe an initiation is a change. Going from nothing to something isn't a change. Going from one thing to another is change.

Main Entry: 1change
Pronunciation: \ˈchānj\
Function: verb

1.  to replace with another

Another suggests that it is something existent. An initiation does not involve replacement, being nonexistent and unprecedented in its previous state.
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« Reply #109 on: October 18, 2009, 06:57:20 am »
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I think it's safe to say I registered to vote just fine without changing states, and I only change my voter registration when I move.

You may well have initially registered to vote without moving States - however that's irrelevant.

What's important is that one can't initially register without changing one's State of registration - from nothing to something. That is a change, the most fundamental and important change possible.

I do not believe an initiation is a change. Going from nothing to something isn't a change. Going from one thing to another is change.

Main Entry: 1change
Pronunciation: \ˈchānj\
Function: verb

1.  to replace with another

Another suggests that it is something existent. An initiation does not involve replacement, being nonexistent and unprecedented in its previous state.

Well we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
You've chosen one definition of change (in effect 'substitution') - there are many others, which I believe support my contention.
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Franzl
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« Reply #110 on: October 18, 2009, 10:06:37 pm »
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Nay
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MaxQue
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« Reply #111 on: October 18, 2009, 11:58:39 pm »
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Aye
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #112 on: October 19, 2009, 11:39:35 am »
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So what is the purpose of this amendment besides being unfair to members of Atlasia. February throws everything off, so saying 6 months could be inaccurate. 180 days would be more precise, and it would be fair.
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« Reply #113 on: October 19, 2009, 11:52:06 am »
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Nay on the amendment at vote.

It was Emsworth, one of Atlasia's greatest ever legal minds, who submitted the 7th Amendment originally - that which changed the wording from "two months" to "sixty days" back in October 2005.

I can't recall the reasoning behind it - nor is there reference to why it was done in the Senate debate on the Amendment at the time, nor in the Senate Legislation Introductory thread when it was introduced, nor from the then protest and analysis thread, nor in any of the legal cases I've checked, so I'm unsure as to exactly what the reasoning for the change was.

I'm nonetheless presuming there was a sound, and potentially legally significant, reason for that change - so unless and until it is established to my satisfaction otherwise, I will vote to retain the days rather than months system of measurement.
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Brandon H
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« Reply #114 on: October 19, 2009, 02:55:52 pm »
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Nay on the amendment at vote.

It was Emsworth, one of Atlasia's greatest ever legal minds, who submitted the 7th Amendment originally - that which changed the wording from "two months" to "sixty days" back in October 2005.

I can't recall the reasoning behind it - nor is there reference to why it was done in the Senate debate on the Amendment at the time, nor in the Senate Legislation Introductory thread when it was introduced, nor from the then protest and analysis thread, nor in any of the legal cases I've checked, so I'm unsure as to exactly what the reasoning for the change was.

I'm nonetheless presuming there was a sound, and potentially legally significant, reason for that change - so unless and until it is established to my satisfaction otherwise, I will vote to retain the days rather than months system of measurement.

Here is the "debate" on that bill.
http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=30427.30

That doesn't help much.

I personally prefer four months or six months over 120 days or 180 days.

Agreeing with some of the other old timers on here, it would be advised that the Senators take their time to get the terminology correct before passing a final version.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #115 on: October 19, 2009, 04:43:04 pm »
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3 Ayes, 5 Nays, 1 Abstaining. This amendment has failed, debate continues.
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« Reply #116 on: October 19, 2009, 05:03:37 pm »
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Nay on the amendment at vote.

It was Emsworth, one of Atlasia's greatest ever legal minds, who submitted the 7th Amendment originally - that which changed the wording from "two months" to "sixty days" back in October 2005.

I can't recall the reasoning behind it - nor is there reference to why it was done in the Senate debate on the Amendment at the time, nor in the Senate Legislation Introductory thread when it was introduced, nor from the then protest and analysis thread, nor in any of the legal cases I've checked, so I'm unsure as to exactly what the reasoning for the change was.

I'm nonetheless presuming there was a sound, and potentially legally significant, reason for that change - so unless and until it is established to my satisfaction otherwise, I will vote to retain the days rather than months system of measurement.

Here is the "debate" on that bill.
http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=30427.30

That doesn't help much.

I personally prefer four months or six months over 120 days or 180 days.

Agreeing with some of the other old timers on here, it would be advised that the Senators take their time to get the terminology correct before passing a final version.

Come to think of it, I could really use some help on proper bill righting. Its a skill thats hard to grasp. Smiley
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #117 on: October 19, 2009, 05:04:14 pm »
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Nay on the amendment at vote.

It was Emsworth, one of Atlasia's greatest ever legal minds, who submitted the 7th Amendment originally - that which changed the wording from "two months" to "sixty days" back in October 2005.

I can't recall the reasoning behind it - nor is there reference to why it was done in the Senate debate on the Amendment at the time, nor in the Senate Legislation Introductory thread when it was introduced, nor from the then protest and analysis thread, nor in any of the legal cases I've checked, so I'm unsure as to exactly what the reasoning for the change was.

I'm nonetheless presuming there was a sound, and potentially legally significant, reason for that change - so unless and until it is established to my satisfaction otherwise, I will vote to retain the days rather than months system of measurement.

Here is the "debate" on that bill.
http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=30427.30

That doesn't help much.

I personally prefer four months or six months over 120 days or 180 days.

Agreeing with some of the other old timers on here, it would be advised that the Senators take their time to get the terminology correct before passing a final version.

Come to think of it, I could really use some help on proper bill righting. Its a skill thats hard to grasp. Smiley

Yep Roll Eyes

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« Reply #118 on: October 19, 2009, 05:08:43 pm »
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Nay on the amendment at vote.

It was Emsworth, one of Atlasia's greatest ever legal minds, who submitted the 7th Amendment originally - that which changed the wording from "two months" to "sixty days" back in October 2005.

I can't recall the reasoning behind it - nor is there reference to why it was done in the Senate debate on the Amendment at the time, nor in the Senate Legislation Introductory thread when it was introduced, nor from the then protest and analysis thread, nor in any of the legal cases I've checked, so I'm unsure as to exactly what the reasoning for the change was.

I'm nonetheless presuming there was a sound, and potentially legally significant, reason for that change - so unless and until it is established to my satisfaction otherwise, I will vote to retain the days rather than months system of measurement.

Here is the "debate" on that bill.
http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=30427.30

That doesn't help much.

I personally prefer four months or six months over 120 days or 180 days.

Agreeing with some of the other old timers on here, it would be advised that the Senators take their time to get the terminology correct before passing a final version.

Come to think of it, I could really use some help on proper bill righting. Its a skill thats hard to grasp. Smiley

Yep Roll Eyes



I was hoping someone would catch that, preferably Marokai and not you though. Tongue
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« Reply #119 on: October 20, 2009, 04:52:27 pm »
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I hereby open up a vote on the following amendment, please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

Quote
1. Article V, Section 2, Clause 7 is hereby amended to read: "Persons may only change their State of registration once every 180 days.

2. Citizens may not change their State of registration between the 8th and 180th day after registering to vote."


Nay
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Rowan
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« Reply #120 on: October 20, 2009, 04:58:33 pm »
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Enthusiasticly AYE
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« Reply #121 on: October 20, 2009, 05:19:51 pm »
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Nay
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« Reply #122 on: October 20, 2009, 06:14:48 pm »
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On second thought, I change my vote to Aye.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #123 on: October 20, 2009, 06:24:50 pm »
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Aye
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« Reply #124 on: October 20, 2009, 06:26:38 pm »
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Aye
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