Rumours!

[President Marokai]

No nachos for you, Conor!

Nachos for me?

And what have you done to earn them?

I'm an ally. I am friends with Sewer Socialist. I'm loony. I'm a fellow Northeasterner. I'm second preferencing AL and encouraging others to do so.

Join the dark side then. You know you want to!

I have to wait for the scandal to blow over.

details!

That's what I want to know!

You talked about a scandal on the 16th. You planned it.

Have you not read the PMs?

But how did you know it was going to come out?

Because I knew there was a leak.

Look, if you haven't read The 48 Laws of Power, it will be hard to understand my thinking.

Oh I get it! ....... interesting I must say.

"Keep people off-balance and in the dark by never revealing the purpose behind your actions.  If they have no clue what you are up to, they cannot prepare a defense.  Guide them far enough down the wrong path, envelope them in enough smoke, and by the time they realize your intentions, it will be too late."

Yeah that philosophy is really necessary in a forum game. Remember everyone, he joined the "It's just a game" party.

[Alexander Hamilton]

No nachos for you, Conor!

Nachos for me?

And what have you done to earn them?

I'm an ally. I am friends with Sewer Socialist. I'm loony. I'm a fellow Northeasterner. I'm second preferencing AL and encouraging others to do so.

Join the dark side then. You know you want to!

I have to wait for the scandal to blow over.

details!

That's what I want to know!

You talked about a scandal on the 16th. You planned it.

Have you not read the PMs?

But how did you know it was going to come out?

Because I knew there was a leak.

Look, if you haven't read The 48 Laws of Power, it will be hard to understand my thinking.

Oh I get it! ....... interesting I must say.

"Keep people off-balance and in the dark by never revealing the purpose behind your actions.  If they have no clue what you are up to, they cannot prepare a defense.  Guide them far enough down the wrong path, envelope them in enough smoke, and by the time they realize your intentions, it will be too late."

Yeah that philosophy is really necessary in a forum game. Remember everyone, he joined the "It's just a game" party.

So I shouldn't implement proper political theory into a political game? It's something I apply to the entire spectrum of my life.

[President Marokai]

Oh I get it! ....... interesting I must say.

"Keep people off-balance and in the dark by never revealing the purpose behind your actions.  If they have no clue what you are up to, they cannot prepare a defense.  Guide them far enough down the wrong path, envelope them in enough smoke, and by the time they realize your intentions, it will be too late."

Yeah that philosophy is really necessary in a forum game. Remember everyone, he joined the "It's just a game" party.

So I shouldn't implement proper political theory into a political game? It's something I apply to the entire spectrum of my life.

Then you're pretty screwed up, quite frankly.

[Alexander Hamilton]

Oh I get it! ....... interesting I must say.

"Keep people off-balance and in the dark by never revealing the purpose behind your actions.  If they have no clue what you are up to, they cannot prepare a defense.  Guide them far enough down the wrong path, envelope them in enough smoke, and by the time they realize your intentions, it will be too late."

Yeah that philosophy is really necessary in a forum game. Remember everyone, he joined the "It's just a game" party.

So I shouldn't implement proper political theory into a political game? It's something I apply to the entire spectrum of my life.

Then you're pretty screwed up, quite frankly.

Not really. I've noticed the same from you and a couple others.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

I learned something!!!! thanx Hamilton!.

[Јas]

Forgive me if I choose not to read all near 20 pages of posts before responding, but:

The PCP I can understand taking this step politically. Regardless of whether a JCP or LNF member is elected they would face a similar left leaning vote, and the LNF would not be able to get their most (obstensiably) Marxist agenda passed regardless. So if it maximizes their vote vs. the aggregate JCP LNF senate makeup, then they come out ahead. (I'll leave others to judge the distastefulness of throwing any of their own party members under the bus as part of the deal).

But I'm disappointed in the LNF--or at least those members who seriously considered the deal. Yes, I know the LNF supposedly considers the JCP "bourgeoisie" liberals and little to no better than the "reactionary" PCP. (See, I read your convention and campaign posts) ;-)  But in reality we all know---or at least should know---there is a marked difference in the nature of legislation passed by a PCP led Senate as opposed to one with a progressive majority (or at least plurality).

Yes, I know its all a game in an election sim, but for whatever extent principles matter in this game it sounds like a number of the LNF were willing to chuck those for short-term political gain. If there have been negotiations behind the scenes with the LNF and JCP of which I'm unaware, I apologize for the error. But otherwise the LNF should've considered working with the JCP first. No, the LNF is in no way beholden to the JCP, nor vice-versa. But we're a lot closer natural allies on the issues and goals for Atlasia than the PCP. But, again, for short term political gains it sounds like many in the LNF were willing to sell out to the very "capitalist running dogs" their party supposedly opposes rather than work with fellow progressives.

This is the problem with the left in a nutshell.

A couple of points...
1. You seem to be confusing the LNF with the CMPA.

2. It also seems clear that the PiT offer never had a realistic chance of acceptance - but I don't see how the party can be faulted for relaying any realistic offer to the membership for discussion.

I'll now get back to my Marxist Senate agenda...

[Badger]

Forgive me if I choose not to read all near 20 pages of posts before responding, but:

The PCP I can understand taking this step politically. Regardless of whether a JCP or LNF member is elected they would face a similar left leaning vote, and the LNF would not be able to get their most (obstensiably) Marxist agenda passed regardless. So if it maximizes their vote vs. the aggregate JCP LNF senate makeup, then they come out ahead. (I'll leave others to judge the distastefulness of throwing any of their own party members under the bus as part of the deal).

But I'm disappointed in the LNF--or at least those members who seriously considered the deal. Yes, I know the LNF supposedly considers the JCP "bourgeoisie" liberals and little to no better than the "reactionary" PCP. (See, I read your convention and campaign posts) ;-)  But in reality we all know---or at least should know---there is a marked difference in the nature of legislation passed by a PCP led Senate as opposed to one with a progressive majority (or at least plurality).

Yes, I know its all a game in an election sim, but for whatever extent principles matter in this game it sounds like a number of the LNF were willing to chuck those for short-term political gain. If there have been negotiations behind the scenes with the LNF and JCP of which I'm unaware, I apologize for the error. But otherwise the LNF should've considered working with the JCP first. No, the LNF is in no way beholden to the JCP, nor vice-versa. But we're a lot closer natural allies on the issues and goals for Atlasia than the PCP. But, again, for short term political gains it sounds like many in the LNF were willing to sell out to the very "capitalist running dogs" their party supposedly opposes rather than work with fellow progressives.

This is the problem with the left in a nutshell.

A couple of points...
1. You seem to be confusing the LNF with the CMPA.

2. It also seems clear that the PiT offer never had a realistic chance of acceptance - but I don't see how the party can be faulted for relaying any realistic offer to the membership for discussion.

I'll now get back to my Marxist Senate agenda...

<g> You do that, Comrade Jas. ;-)

Regardless of the CMPA's existance, Al and others have certainly led the party with at least a patine of Trotskyite sloganering and lingo. The point here is the LNF claims to be the "true leftist" party in Atlasia, and if so shouldn't be so quick to consider helping the PCP gain power.

Please note I chose my words very carefully in my post. Trondheim's post indicated the individual LNF members response was all over the board. I believe I made it clear I certainly do not fault the entire LNF. To be perfectly clear, to the extent any LNF members seriously considered the deal I say "shame"; but to the extent LNF members either disregarded the overture or said "go pound sand, corporate fat cats!", I say "bully to you LNF!".

[Јas]

Regardless of the CMPA's existance, Al and others have certainly led the party with at least a patine of Trotskyite sloganering and lingo. The point here is the LNF claims to be the "true leftist" party in Atlasia, and if so shouldn't be so quick to consider helping the PCP gain power.

Well, as I'm sure Al himself will attest, the LNF doesn't have a leader and his Presidential campaign has primarily been run as a CMPA effort. While I'm sure the LNF will strongly back that ticket, I don't think the LNF has any avowed far leftist agenda.

If the LNF declared itself to be the "true leftist" party then I missed it. Indeed I'd be a bit surprised. I'm sure the LNF membership would agree that the JCP could reasonably be described as of the left as well. Again I think there has been a line maintained between the rhetoric of the CMPA and the LNF in this regard.

Please note I chose my words very carefully in my post. Trondheim's post indicated the individual LNF members response was all over the board. I believe I made it clear I certainly do not fault the entire LNF. To be perfectly clear, to the extent any LNF members seriously considered the deal I say "shame"; but to the extent LNF members either disregarded the overture or said "go pound sand, corporate fat cats!", I say "bully to you LNF!".

I accept that the post was carefully worded, but note that, so far as I have made out, only 2 LNF members were prepared not to reject the offer out of hand.

I would also note that criticism from the JCP to any other party, DA or LNF, about enabling the PCP/RPP should be tempered by noting that it wasn't very long ago that we had a JCP/RPP ticket win the Presidential election. I hadn't realised that the JCP had changed it's stance such that only considering some form of agreement with the RPP/PCP would be deemed completely unacceptable.

[Sibboleth]

Indeed. We run candidates through the LNF as a means of participating in bourgeois elections without corrupting the Party.

But wait.

Trotskyite?!!

[Senator Sbane]

Forgive me if I choose not to read all near 20 pages of posts before responding, but:

The PCP I can understand taking this step politically. Regardless of whether a JCP or LNF member is elected they would face a similar left leaning vote, and the LNF would not be able to get their most (obstensiably) Marxist agenda passed regardless. So if it maximizes their vote vs. the aggregate JCP LNF senate makeup, then they come out ahead. (I'll leave others to judge the distastefulness of throwing any of their own party members under the bus as part of the deal).

But I'm disappointed in the LNF--or at least those members who seriously considered the deal. Yes, I know the LNF supposedly considers the JCP "bourgeoisie" liberals and little to no better than the "reactionary" PCP. (See, I read your convention and campaign posts) ;-)  But in reality we all know---or at least should know---there is a marked difference in the nature of legislation passed by a PCP led Senate as opposed to one with a progressive majority (or at least plurality).

Yes, I know its all a game in an election sim, but for whatever extent principles matter in this game it sounds like a number of the LNF were willing to chuck those for short-term political gain. If there have been negotiations behind the scenes with the LNF and JCP of which I'm unaware, I apologize for the error. But otherwise the LNF should've considered working with the JCP first. No, the LNF is in no way beholden to the JCP, nor vice-versa. But we're a lot closer natural allies on the issues and goals for Atlasia than the PCP. But, again, for short term political gains it sounds like many in the LNF were willing to sell out to the very "capitalist running dogs" their party supposedly opposes rather than work with fellow progressives.

This is the problem with the left in a nutshell.

A couple of points...
1. You seem to be confusing the LNF with the CMPA.

2. It also seems clear that the PiT offer never had a realistic chance of acceptance - but I don't see how the party can be faulted for relaying any realistic offer to the membership for discussion.

I'll now get back to my Marxist Senate agenda...

Please note I chose my words very carefully in my post. Trondheim's post indicated the individual LNF members response was all over the board. I believe I made it clear I certainly do not fault the entire LNF. To be perfectly clear, to the extent any LNF members seriously considered the deal I say "shame"; but to the extent LNF members either disregarded the overture or said "go pound sand, corporate fat cats!", I say "bully to you LNF!".

From my perspective 2nd preferencing PiT was not much to give up in return for DWTL's ensured defeat. I am of course one of the more right wing members of the LNF and would be fine with an Al, Franzl, Lief or PiT presidency. So voting highly for him wouldn't be a big deal. Others were more reticent of course. The worst part of the deal was that Hashemite would be thrown under the bus as well and this is why I wanted to reject it. Anyways we realized DWTL was going to lose anyways, and will certainly lose now that Rocky has dropped out, making the deal unnecessary. Of course by that time everything had become public and you know what happened next.

[ilikeverin]

Regardless of the CMPA's existance, Al and others have certainly led the party with at least a patine of Trotskyite sloganering and lingo. The point here is the LNF claims to be the "true leftist" party in Atlasia, and if so shouldn't be so quick to consider helping the PCP gain power.

Well, as I'm sure Al himself will attest, the LNF doesn't have a leader and his Presidential campaign has primarily been run as a CMPA effort. While I'm sure the LNF will strongly back that ticket, I don't think the LNF has any avowed far leftist agenda.

If the LNF declared itself to be the "true leftist" party then I missed it. Indeed I'd be a bit surprised. I'm sure the LNF membership would agree that the JCP could reasonably be described as of the left as well. Again I think there has been a line maintained between the rhetoric of the CMPA and the LNF in this regard.

Indeed.  Rather, I think the sense of the LNF is that the JCP is the "un-fun leftist party" or the "leftist party without *hughughug*" or the "grumpy leftist party".

[Hatman]

Should we start giving our new party members *hughughugs*?

[Sewer]

Should we start giving our new party members *hughughugs*?

Yes, yes we should.

[ilikeverin]

Should we start giving our new party members *hughughugs*?

A world without *hughughug* is a sad one indeed

[Senator Sbane]

Should we start giving our new party members *hughughugs*?

Sure. Everyone needs a hug along with their nachos.

[Alexander Hamilton]

Should we start giving our new party members *hughughugs*?

Sure. Everyone needs a hug along with their nachos.

I, for one, enjoyed the nachos. I will give *hughughug* to all my LNF friends.

[bgwah]

Regardless of the CMPA's existance, Al and others have certainly led the party with at least a patine of Trotskyite sloganering and lingo. The point here is the LNF claims to be the "true leftist" party in Atlasia, and if so shouldn't be so quick to consider helping the PCP gain power.

Well, as I'm sure Al himself will attest, the LNF doesn't have a leader and his Presidential campaign has primarily been run as a CMPA effort. While I'm sure the LNF will strongly back that ticket, I don't think the LNF has any avowed far leftist agenda.

If the LNF declared itself to be the "true leftist" party then I missed it. Indeed I'd be a bit surprised. I'm sure the LNF membership would agree that the JCP could reasonably be described as of the left as well. Again I think there has been a line maintained between the rhetoric of the CMPA and the LNF in this regard.

Indeed.  Rather, I think the sense of the LNF is that the JCP is the "un-fun leftist party" or the "leftist party without *hughughug*" or the "grumpy leftist party".

No, it is for leftists who are still mad at me for stuff that happened years ago.

But don't worry... The right was united and look how dis-fractured and chaotic their party became. The LNF ensures the JCP is truly united by providing an alternative for undesirable liberals.

I would also note that criticism from the JCP to any other party, DA or LNF, about enabling the PCP/RPP should be tempered by noting that it wasn't very long ago that we had a JCP/RPP ticket win the Presidential election. I hadn't realised that the JCP had changed it's stance such that only considering some form of agreement with the RPP/PCP would be deemed completely unacceptable.

I don't really care that the DA pursued a unity ticket with them. They're not preachy hypocrites. We all knew darn well of the MasterJedi/Franzl ticket and didn't make a big deal of it.

[Badger]

So many responses, so little time:

Regardless of whether the LNF is Marxist, ultra-liberal or whatever, the fact is it is undeniably leftist and proud of it. Thus any LNF members supporting working with the PCP to gain power is decidedly unsavory and contrary to what the party stands for, even considering its other raison de etre as a party of merry jokers.  Yet again, to the extent of the number of LNF supporters who supported this that's sad, but I'm glad to just now learn from Jas's last post that there apparantly weren't more than 2 interested LNFers.

Speaking of which, sbane you've obviously got a right to your own view and, yes, you may be moderate by LNF standards, and yes again "it's just a game", but within that game at least no one with your political matrix scores should won't an anarcho-capitalist like PiT anywhere near the presidency. If my server wasn't frozen I would link to his mindblowing views on making violent crimes including murder and rape punishable entirely through restitution to the victim.

As far as the RPP-JCP alliance referred to, I plead ignorance as it was well before my time and officially duck the question. :-P

"The grumpy leftist party"? Meh, maybe a grain of truth there. In response to all:
*hughughughughughughugHUG*

[Alexander Hamilton]

So many responses, so little time:

Regardless of whether the LNF is Marxist, ultra-liberal or whatever, the fact is it is undeniably leftist and proud of it. Thus any LNF members supporting working with the PCP to gain power is decidedly unsavory and contrary to what the party stands for, even considering its other raison de etre as a party of merry jokers.  Yet again, to the extent of the number of LNF supporters who supported this that's sad, but I'm glad to just now learn from Jas's last post that there apparantly weren't more than 2 interested LNFers.

Speaking of which, sbane you've obviously got a right to your own view and, yes, you may be moderate by LNF standards, and yes again "it's just a game", but within that game at least no one with your political matrix scores should won't an anarcho-capitalist like PiT anywhere near the presidency. If my server wasn't frozen I would link to his mindblowing views on making violent crimes including murder and rape punishable entirely through restitution to the victim.

As far as the RPP-JCP alliance referred to, I plead ignorance as it was well before my time and officially duck the question. :-P

"The grumpy leftist party"? Meh, maybe a grain of truth there. In response to all:
*hughughughughughughugHUG*

PiT offered more opportunities to advance the LNF cause. Also, I don't see anything on PiT's platform that implies anarcho-capitalism in any way.

[Sewer]

So many responses, so little time:

Regardless of whether the LNF is Marxist, ultra-liberal or whatever, the fact is it is undeniably leftist and proud of it. Thus any LNF members supporting working with the PCP to gain power is decidedly unsavory and contrary to what the party stands for, even considering its other raison de etre as a party of merry jokers.  Yet again, to the extent of the number of LNF supporters who supported this that's sad, but I'm glad to just now learn from Jas's last post that there apparantly weren't more than 2 interested LNFers.

Speaking of which, sbane you've obviously got a right to your own view and, yes, you may be moderate by LNF standards, and yes again "it's just a game", but within that game at least no one with your political matrix scores should won't an anarcho-capitalist like PiT anywhere near the presidency. If my server wasn't frozen I would link to his mindblowing views on making violent crimes including murder and rape punishable entirely through restitution to the victim.

As far as the RPP-JCP alliance referred to, I plead ignorance as it was well before my time and officially duck the question. :-P

"The grumpy leftist party"? Meh, maybe a grain of truth there. In response to all:
*hughughughughughughugHUG*

PiT offered more opportunities to advance the LNF cause. Also, I don't see anything on PiT's platform that implies anarcho-capitalism in any way.

Get out of my Party.

[Sewer]

No, it is for leftists who are still mad at me for stuff that happened years ago.

I am not mad at you.

[Hatman]

So many responses, so little time:

Regardless of whether the LNF is Marxist, ultra-liberal or whatever, the fact is it is undeniably leftist and proud of it. Thus any LNF members supporting working with the PCP to gain power is decidedly unsavory and contrary to what the party stands for, even considering its other raison de etre as a party of merry jokers.  Yet again, to the extent of the number of LNF supporters who supported this that's sad, but I'm glad to just now learn from Jas's last post that there apparantly weren't more than 2 interested LNFers.

Speaking of which, sbane you've obviously got a right to your own view and, yes, you may be moderate by LNF standards, and yes again "it's just a game", but within that game at least no one with your political matrix scores should won't an anarcho-capitalist like PiT anywhere near the presidency. If my server wasn't frozen I would link to his mindblowing views on making violent crimes including murder and rape punishable entirely through restitution to the victim.

As far as the RPP-JCP alliance referred to, I plead ignorance as it was well before my time and officially duck the question. :-P

"The grumpy leftist party"? Meh, maybe a grain of truth there. In response to all:
*hughughughughughughugHUG*

PiT offered more opportunities to advance the LNF cause. Also, I don't see anything on PiT's platform that implies anarcho-capitalism in any way.

Get out of my Party.

As chair, I demand both of you exchange *hughughugs*

[Alexander Hamilton]

I will give Sewer Socialist *hughughug*

there.

[bgwah]

As far as the RPP-JCP alliance referred to, I plead ignorance as it was well before my time and officially duck the question. :-P

The JCP wasn't quite the same party then since we hadn't yet merged with the SDP...

Anyway, back then, abolishing regions and moving to a more European-style game were serious threats. The JCP and RPP were in line on these critical issues and united against them.

[DownWithTheLeft]

As far as the RPP-JCP alliance referred to, I plead ignorance as it was well before my time and officially duck the question. :-P

The JCP wasn't quite the same party then since we hadn't yet merged with the SDP...

Anyway, back then, abolishing regions and moving to a more European-style game were serious threats. The JCP and RPP were in line on these critical issues and united against them.

Yeah, the RPP didn't even contest that our most liberal member be on your ticket.  We just wanted to make sure regions were preserved to help our long-term goals