Bush is liberal.

[classical liberal]

Just look at his budgetary records: http://www.omb.gov

[opebo]

There's a lot more to being liberal or conservative than just spending.  Even if he is 'liberal' to those of us who are truly right-wing, he's a lot better than the alternative.

[angus]

Bu$h is a liberal, no doubt.  I've been screaming this from the top of every building in San Francisco and they all think I'm nuts.  But, it doesn't really matter, does it?

I just got back from safeway where all reds were on sale for 20% off!  It's going to be another unproductive weekend.

On the way out, there were about 10 people with petitions spanning the range of topics from stem cell research to DNA testing by cops to two local schools closing.  I signed 'em all.  California loves populism.  So do I.

My country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing.

[agcatter]

You just think you have a liberal now.  Wait to you get a load of the judges appointed to the federal courts by John Kerry.  Now there's a liberal.

[Wakie]

I wouldn't call Bush a liberal.  Socially he's extremely conservative.  Economically he's irresponsible.  He cuts taxes and raises the budget.  That is just plain irresponsible.

[angus]

Hey agcat,
I will say I'm into constructionist justices; whether I agree with them or not is another issue.  Right on.

[Ben.]

All judges in my view should be moderates in the mould of the likes of Earl Warren... Warren Christopher would have been an ace Supreme court judge! the thing is Bush just appoints arch-conservatives to the bench and that upsets the balance... did Clinton actually appoint any real liberals to the bench? I would see Kerry appointing Moderates as even with a dem senate and congress moderate dems would only allow moderates while in the likely scenario of both houses being GOP there’s no way any body except moderates will get appointed... could Breaux be a contender?

[ncjake]

I wouldn't call Bush a liberal.  Socially he's extremely conservative.  Economically he's irresponsible.  He cuts taxes and raises the budget.  That is just plain irresponsible.

How is he extremely conservative socially? He is less so than Reagan or his father. Just because he disagrees with gay marraige? So does 75% of the country, and 60% wants amendment to ban it, so theres nothing extreme about that. He disagrees with abortion. So does over 50% of the country. He disagrees with Affirmative action. So does 50% of the country. How is any of that extreme?

[ncjake]

All judges in my view should be moderates in the mould of the likes of Earl Warren... Warren Christopher would have been an ace Supreme court judge! the thing is Bush just appoints arch-conservatives to the bench and that upsets the balance... did Clinton actually appoint any real liberals to the bench? I would see Kerry appointing Moderates as even with a dem senate and congress moderate dems would only allow moderates while in the likely scenario of both houses being GOP there’s no way any body except moderates will get appointed... could Breaux be a contender?

Earl Warren was working for the Republican party. Didn't you see the Oliver Stone movie "JFK"? He covered it up when the Republicans had Kennedy assassinated.

[zachman]

Bush traded Sammy Sosa away.

I don't know much about Bush's record in Texas but his political philosophy would be best described as, survival or strategery. Those are the dangerous philosophies he tries to follow.

[ncjake]

Bush traded Sammy Sosa away.

I don't know much about Bush's record in Texas but his political philosophy would be best described as, survival or strategery. Those are the dangerous philosophies he tries to follow.

I think Bush's group didn't officially get the Rangers until the year after he was traded. Oh well, I don't like the Rangers anyway

[12th Doctor]

I do have my disagreements with Bush and I would say that he is liberal on some issues, such as government spending.  I wouldn't call him 'extremely conservative' socially.  Not even close.  He is right of center.  I just think that it is halarious that the libs are running around saying that he is extremely conservative.  It shows how monsterously bias they are.  I wouldn't even verture to say that Kerry is 'extremely liberal' on anything, because chances are, he will have a different stance on the issues tomorrow (sorry, had to take that dig).  Bush looks pretty pro-immigration to me.  He isn't chaining women to the kitchen sink.  So then it comes down to three issues, well four I suppose, and this is were liberals show there true colors.

1) Bush is pro-tradition families

Liberal translation- Bush is extreme

2) Bush is anti-abortion

Liberal translation- Bush is extreme

3) Bush is pro-civil union but against gay marriage

Liberal translation- Bush is extreme

4) Bush dosn't believe in abortion on demand

Liberal translation- Bush is extreme

Are we noticing a pattern here.  Liberals won't admit that there views are liberal.  Instead, 'they are moderate and conservatives are extreme.  Nader's not extreme, he's liberal'.  
I'm not saying this about all of you Dems out there, quite the contrary, there are some very fair minded Dems on this forum, but this seem s to be what I take away from discussions with most of you.

[zachman]

Bush is not advocating to adopt civil unions, and is not a liberal on  that issue. He is against gun control and for capital punishment (didn't he argue that Jesus supported capital punishment) and therefore can never be called a liberal. But if someone runs a smear campaign against him calling him a liberal, it is fine by me.

[12th Doctor]

Bush is not advocating to adopt civil unions, and is not a liberal on  that issue. He is against gun control and for capital punishment (didn't he argue that Jesus supported capital punishment) and therefore can never be called a liberal. But if someone runs a smear campaign against him calling him a liberal, it is fine by me.

WOW... you totally missed my point.  My point was not that Bush was a liberal on THOSE issues, just that just because he is a conservative doesn't make him extreme like Wakie was atempting to assert.

[ncjake]

He is against gun control and for capital punishment

Clinton was for capitol punishment, and Dean is against gun control

[zachman]

Dean or Clinton were not liberals.

[© tweed]

Dean or Clinton were not liberals.

Dean is a social liberal and a fiscal conservative.
Clinton is a social liberal-leaning moderate and a fiscal conservative.

But, Dean is a liberal, as he comes across as a liberal.
Clinton isn't a liberal, he came from the center-right.

[zachman]

What issue has Dean been a social liberal on? Maybe abortion but thats about it.

[ncjake]

Dean or Clinton were not liberals.

The term liberal is relative. It's differant for differant people. Clinton presented himself as a moderate. Dean presented himself as being ultra-liberal, whether he is or isnt is another story. I think they are both liberal. You think Bush is conservative. Its not a set in stone thing. All politicians form the two major parties are liberals. Its just to what degree they are liberal. However thats by American standards of what the term liberal means. To me, liberalism is based on government control. the bigger and more powerful the government, the more conservative it is. I consider myself a liberal in that I believe in absolute limited government. I am a year away from being able to vote, but I'm sure I will vote Libertarian in small local elections, because they are true liberals

[© tweed]

What issue has Dean been a social liberal on? Maybe abortion but thats about it.

Death penalty, AA, civil unions. etc.

[Kghadial]

cough , cough .... civil unions ... cough .... first in the nation ... cough ... cough

Sorry, what was i saying

[angus]

Dean or Clinton were not liberals.

The term liberal is relative. It's differant for differant people. Clinton presented himself as a moderate. Dean presented himself as being ultra-liberal, whether he is or isnt is another story. I think they are both liberal. You think Bush is conservative. Its not a set in stone thing. All politicians form the two major parties are liberals. Its just to what degree they are liberal. However thats by American standards of what the term liberal means. To me, liberalism is based on government control. the bigger and more powerful the government, the more conservative it is. I consider myself a liberal in that I believe in absolute limited government. I am a year away from being able to vote, but I'm sure I will vote Libertarian in small local elections, because they are true liberals

That's apparently close the definition of liberal in Sweden, as was pointed out in another thread.  I once offered to accept and use that definition, but there were guffaws.  I offered a more logical one.  Lots of moaning over that too.  It reminds us of the fact that in any debate the first point of order is to define all terms.   Your definition is fine, and if it holds, then bush is both quite liberal and quite conservative, like the rest of us.

Television footage of Kerry campaigning today (in San Antonio and Houston for the largest slate of delegates remaining) showed Kerry offering several alternative definitions as well.  "If it's liberal to support no child left behind, and not just with lip-service, then I'm a liberal.  If it's liberal to ... then I'm a liberal."  Ad nauseum.

But, staying on topic, our definition was succinctly implied by Rightwingnut's original question.  By his implied definition (one of my favorites) Bush's agenda is liberal.  And both Dean and Clinton are more conservative.  Kerry is also a liberal.

[CollectiveInterest]

There's a lot more to being liberal or conservative than just spending.  Even if he is 'liberal' to those of us who are truly right-wing, he's a lot better than the alternative.

What's more important than fiscal discipline?

And if the Republicans can't control spending when they control the whole gov't, do they lose credibility on the fiscal discipline issue?

[Wakie]

I wouldn't call Bush a liberal.  Socially he's extremely conservative.  Economically he's irresponsible.  He cuts taxes and raises the budget.  That is just plain irresponsible.

How is he extremely conservative socially? He is less so than Reagan or his father. Just because he disagrees with gay marraige? So does 75% of the country, and 60% wants amendment to ban it, so theres nothing extreme about that. He disagrees with abortion. So does over 50% of the country. He disagrees with Affirmative action. So does 50% of the country. How is any of that extreme?

Well, on many of the issues others, and you, have touched on here Bush falls on the "conservative side" of the fence.

Bush is ...
*so against gay marriage he proposed a Constituitional Amendment
*so against affirmative action that his administration challenged U of Michigan's policies
*so against gun control that he is against backrgound checks for private gun sales
*VERY MUCH for the death penalty (he was Gov Death, remember?)
*promotes abstinence only sex ed (not abstinence first, abstinence ONLY)
*funds "faith-based charities" which could then use the money to promote their own religions
*appointed to the Federal Bench a Judge who suggested that segregation was a good thing
*is against stem-cell research (heck, even Nancy Reagan is FOR stem cell research!)

Heck, I challenge you to find a social position in which Bush IS NOT conservative on.  If you are conservative (or liberal) on EVERY social issue, then you can be called extremely socially conservative (or liberal).

So I stand by my statement that Bush is extremely socially conservative.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

He was criticized for not supporting it earlier and only did so after Gavin Newsom decided that he was above the law.  (See Bob Novak's Dec. 2003 criticism of Bush for not agreeing to the amendment idea - http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031201.shtml)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

He's no where near as "extreme" as he should be on that issue.  He should challenge it further until government discrimination on the basis of race ends permanently.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Point taken.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

He wasn't killing mental patients like Clinton was.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, the "base" (the 10% of our party that thinks they are the majority) thinks he's actually weak on that.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You mean not fighting charities who are actually helping people just because they were started by a religious interest?  No offense here... but how many athiest charities are there?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's bullsh**t but he might as well... you people accuse his appointees of being racist even though they risked their lives for supporting civil rights.  With Democrats in the Senate, white southerners need not apply for judgeships.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

He supported Frist's MODERATE position on the issue and was roundly criticized by the "base" for doing so.