The Bush supporter's mind??

[stry_cat]

Yesterday was only the 2nd time I've seen an info table for Bush/Cheney.  It was at a gun show.   When I asked Bush supporter's about Bush's support for the Clinton gun ban, they seemed to be in denial.  Responces ranged from no he didn't to well he knew Congress wasn't going to pass it. 

Giving up on that approach, I questioned them about their support for Bush's excessive spending.  Their responce almost always was "we're at war"  When I pointed out that excluding the military budget, the last three years were 3 of the five largest increases in real domestic spending, their responce was almost always "we're at war"  I did have one guy tell me that businesses need government to fund them and that we need to greatly increase spending on aid to businesses (a.k.a. corporate welfair). 

What's wrong with these people?? 

Only two would admit that Bush wasn't perfect. 

[CollectiveInterest]

The country is divided into people that believe Bush and people that don't.

The people that believe Bush come to policy issues believing in the infallibility of Bush and Neo Con ideology.

No amount of logic or facts can trump their faith in Bush and the Neo Cons.

How did they get this way? The Right Wing media convinced them to be scared. What do they fear? An alliance of Blacks, feminists, homosexuals, Arabs, Muslims, gun grabbers, Communists and liberals will hurt them and threaten their way of life. Is this fear rational? To them the answer is, "yes".

[shankbear]

Collectionguy,

Life has demonstrated that the LIBERAL ideology is a failure.  Where is that Right Wing media? Faux News??  Right.  cBS?  ABCNBCCNNMSNBC?

Your party has sold out to the left and good, honest democrats of the past are rolling over in their graves.

[shankbear]

....and the likes of Kerry and Edwards are running from their LIBERAL ideology so fast they are running like scalded apes.  They should embrace their LIBERAL thoughts, deeds, emotions and their very LIBERAL way of life.  They should breathe it in deep and espouse it on every street corner.

Kerry is out there calling himself a moderate.  What is a moderate?  Too wishy-washy to take a stance or side is what it means.  Lukewarm.

Lukewarm will not cut it.  He has no spine....like a tower of Jello.

[CollectiveInterest]

Collectionguy,

Life has demonstrated that the LIBERAL ideology is a failure.  Where is that Right Wing media? Faux News??  Right.  cBS?  ABCNBCCNNMSNBC?

Your party has sold out to the left and good, honest democrats of the past are rolling over in their graves.

Once again you demonstrate how simple-minded Republicans are.

What is liberal ideology? How has it failed?

Did the mainstream media give fair coverage to Iraq War opposition?

What makes you think I'm a Democrat?

How has the Democratic Party "sold out" to the Left?

[CollectiveInterest]

  They should embrace their LIBERAL thoughts, deeds, emotions and their very LIBERAL way of life.

What does this mean? Can you explain with specifics?

[Giant Saguaro]

That two "admitted Bush wasn't perfect" is your interpretation.

You also went into the "encounter" with the belief that you were right and they were wrong prematurely - nothing they could have said short of denouncing Bush would have been right. There was a failure in communication - I would conclude that you did not listen to them, as you were too preoccupied with proving them wrong and proving their support misplaced and when you could not, you became frustrated.

And Collective Interest says the media is right wing. Okay. One can assert that, I guess, but assertion isn't, of course, proof. Well, off the bat - the Bush people are wrong and that's it is in there, so it's similarly viewed through some prescription of narrow partisan lenses.

I don't think people fear an alliance of blacks, feminists, etc. as much as they fear something like race-based or even gender-based affirmative action, as it's a legally prescribed method of descrimination. But that's another subject, I'll guess.

[Giant Saguaro]

Collectionguy,

Life has demonstrated that the LIBERAL ideology is a failure.  Where is that Right Wing media? Faux News??  Right.  cBS?  ABCNBCCNNMSNBC?

Your party has sold out to the left and good, honest democrats of the past are rolling over in their graves.

Once again you demonstrate how simple-minded Republicans are.

What is liberal ideology? How has it failed?

Did the mainstream media give fair coverage to Iraq War opposition?

What makes you think I'm a Democrat?

How has the Democratic Party "sold out" to the Left?

Good example, the first line. Why even attempt to argue with you? You don't want to hear anything other than your point of you re-asserted.

[CollectiveInterest]

I don't think people fear an alliance of blacks, feminists, etc. as much as they fear something like race-based or even gender-based affirmative action, as it's a legally prescribed method of descrimination. But that's another subject, I'll guess.

Do Blacks and women control too much power and wealth in the USA?

[Giant Saguaro]

I don't think people fear an alliance of blacks, feminists, etc. as much as they fear something like race-based or even gender-based affirmative action, as it's a legally prescribed method of descrimination. But that's another subject, I'll guess.

Do Blacks and women control too much power and wealth in the USA?

I would say no. But that doesn't mean we should readjust it to make it more on some arbitrarily defined equitable level. People can succeed or fail - sit down and do nothing/wait for it to come to you or go get it done themselves.

[CollectiveInterest]

Collectionguy,

Life has demonstrated that the LIBERAL ideology is a failure.  Where is that Right Wing media? Faux News??  Right.  cBS?  ABCNBCCNNMSNBC?

Your party has sold out to the left and good, honest democrats of the past are rolling over in their graves.

Once again you demonstrate how simple-minded Republicans are.

What is liberal ideology? How has it failed?

Did the mainstream media give fair coverage to Iraq War opposition?

What makes you think I'm a Democrat?

How has the Democratic Party "sold out" to the Left?

Good example, the first line. Why even attempt to argue with you? You don't want to hear anything other than your point of you re-asserted.

If Republicans make an argument based on facts and logic, I am happy to respond.

But simply putting the label "liberal" on something and then asserting "liberal=bad or wrong" is the type of bullsh**t Republicans usually provide. And it deserves derision.

Bush supporters post so many moronic things it's a pattern. On Iraq Bush supporters are living in an alternate reality. On the deficit one Bush supporter was so numerically illiterate he thought Teresa Heinz Kerry paying more taxes would significantly reduce the deficit. You know what his problem was? He was off be a factor of one thousand on the size of the deficit. Did learning the true size of the deficit cause him to rethink the issue? Naw. He knew Bush to be infallible. Why let facts change your mind?

[CollectiveInterest]

I don't think people fear an alliance of blacks, feminists, etc. as much as they fear something like race-based or even gender-based affirmative action, as it's a legally prescribed method of descrimination. But that's another subject, I'll guess.

Do Blacks and women control too much power and wealth in the USA?

I would say no. But that doesn't mean we should readjust it to make it more on some arbitrarily defined equitable level. People can succeed or fail - sit down and do nothing/wait for it to come to you or go get it done themselves.

How do people move up in society? Does everybody have equal opportunity to move up?

I don't have a problem with someone opposing affirmative action. But what I hear from Republicans is denial that unfairness exists and denial that gov't has a role in making society better and more fair.

Republicans and the Right Wing media nurture the grudges of people that think of themselves as "White". The Right Wing hasn't provided any ideas about how to address the unfairness in society other than to ignore it and hope it goes away.

[Bono]

Collectionguy,

Life has demonstrated that the LIBERAL ideology is a failure.  Where is that Right Wing media? Faux News??  Right.  cBS?  ABCNBCCNNMSNBC?

Your party has sold out to the left and good, honest democrats of the past are rolling over in their graves.

More like honest republicans from teh past are rolling on their graves, since the republican party has sld out its conservative values to neo-cons and warmongers.

[Giant Saguaro]

Collectionguy,

Life has demonstrated that the LIBERAL ideology is a failure.  Where is that Right Wing media? Faux News??  Right.  cBS?  ABCNBCCNNMSNBC?

Your party has sold out to the left and good, honest democrats of the past are rolling over in their graves.

Once again you demonstrate how simple-minded Republicans are.

What is liberal ideology? How has it failed?

Did the mainstream media give fair coverage to Iraq War opposition?

What makes you think I'm a Democrat?

How has the Democratic Party "sold out" to the Left?

Good example, the first line. Why even attempt to argue with you? You don't want to hear anything other than your point of you re-asserted.

If Republicans make an argument based on facts and logic, I am happy to respond.

But simply putting the label "liberal" on something and then asserting "liberal=bad or wrong" is the type of bullsh**t Republicans usually provide. And it deserves derision.

Bush supporters post so many moronic things it's a pattern. On Iraq Bush supporters are living in an alternate reality. On the deficit one Bush supporter was so numerically illiterate he thought Teresa Heinz Kerry paying more taxes would significantly reduce the deficit. You know what his problem was? He was off be a factor of one thousand on the size of the deficit. Did learning the true size of the deficit cause him to rethink the issue? Naw. He knew Bush to be infallible. Why let facts change your mind?

Oh okay - it's an individual thing then and perhaps not necessarily a Republican thing? I know, we all group each other into the opposite ideology or extreme sometimes. Nobody's perfect.

Kerry's wife won't offset the deficit, obviously. That's out there, I'll admit. Fine.

However, I think the emphasis on the deficit is misplaced; it's a wedge of sorts. The Dems can say, see, look how they're spending. Would you run your household like that? Well no, but my household doesn't have a military budget or a domestic budget either. It's a very different thing, IMO. Besides, a deficit can be erased in a few years. It's not that big a deal to me and a lot of Republicans. And as long as it's controlled, fine. If tax cuts mean we get out of a recession, but we go into a deficit, I want out of the recession! Give us our money back.

[Giant Saguaro]

I don't think people fear an alliance of blacks, feminists, etc. as much as they fear something like race-based or even gender-based affirmative action, as it's a legally prescribed method of descrimination. But that's another subject, I'll guess.

Do Blacks and women control too much power and wealth in the USA?

I would say no. But that doesn't mean we should readjust it to make it more on some arbitrarily defined equitable level. People can succeed or fail - sit down and do nothing/wait for it to come to you or go get it done themselves.

How do people move up in society? Does everybody have equal opportunity to move up?

I don't have a problem with someone opposing affirmative action. But what I hear from Republicans is denial that unfairness exists and denial that gov't has a role in making society better and more fair.

Republicans and the Right Wing media nurture the grudges of people that think of themselves as "White". The Right Wing hasn't provided any ideas about how to address the unfairness in society other than to ignore it and hope it goes away.

I'll be interested sometime to hear how the media is right wing.

Again, I have a problem with government setting an arbitrary standard of re-adjustment to make things fairer.

There isn't one way to move up. There are lots of ways to move vertically on the social hierarchy. A friend of mine used to own and opporate a restaurant. To be short, because I have to be going shortly, an African American man came in looking for a job one winter afternoon. This was back in the 1980s, middle part of the '80s, I believe. This guy had a record; my friend asked him why he should give him a job. Straight out. Just, why should I hire you - because I need someone, some help, now isn't a good enough reason. The guy responded, you probably shouldn't, but all I'm asking for is a chance. Will it hurt you to give me a chance? My friend did. This guy went to work for him and busted ASS. He went to school while he worked full time and maintained a 4.0. He hauled ass. This man to whom my buddy gave a chance is now making over a hundred K a year in some corporate job, I don't know the details and probably wouldn't mention them if I did. My buddy ran into him about 6 or so years ago, in the late '90s. How'd he get there? Hard work. And he thanked my friend, who was misty-eyed.

The idea that the majority descriminates against blacks in the work force isn't entirely accurate also.

And, if government says we're just going to fix this problem by descriminating against the majority, that won't make anybody better. That's going to make people lazy and dependent on the government. Hard work will improve the situation, I say, coupled with more ways than one to move up.

[CollectiveInterest]

However, I think the emphasis on the deficit is misplaced; it's a wedge of sorts. The Dems can say, see, look how they're spending. Would you run your household like that? Well no, but my household doesn't have a military budget or a domestic budget either. It's a very different thing, IMO. Besides, a deficit can be erased in a few years. It's not that big a deal to me and a lot of Republicans. And as long as it's controlled, fine. If tax cuts mean we get out of a recession, but we go into a deficit, I want out of the recession! Give us our money back.

Do you acknowledge the Bush tax cut failed to grow the economy or produce jobs as predicted?

Should Bush be held accountable for being wrong on the tax cute?The Iraq War? How bad does he have to screw-up before conservatives acknowledge Bush policies have been a failure?

[CollectiveInterest]

I'll be interested sometime to hear how the media is right wing.

The media failed to be appropriately skeptical of the Bush case for the Iraq War.

The media bought way to much bullsh**t after 9/11. "They hate us because they hate our freedom" should have been questionned from the beginning.

Republicans are given coverage even when the journalists know they are lying. This is wrong. If someone is lying the only coverage they should get is that they are lying.

The media was basically a cheering section for the Iraq War. Iraqi civilian voices were ignored. And the suffering of the invasion was not covered.

[opebo]

Most Bush supporters are not thinking at all - they are blinded by religion and/or patriotism.  A few are in fact rational libertarian-leaning people who are simply underestimating the threat the christian-controlled GOP represents to their freedom, while overestimaing the threat represented by the very slight economic leftism that used to be a Democrat characteristic.

[Giant Saguaro]

However, I think the emphasis on the deficit is misplaced; it's a wedge of sorts. The Dems can say, see, look how they're spending. Would you run your household like that? Well no, but my household doesn't have a military budget or a domestic budget either. It's a very different thing, IMO. Besides, a deficit can be erased in a few years. It's not that big a deal to me and a lot of Republicans. And as long as it's controlled, fine. If tax cuts mean we get out of a recession, but we go into a deficit, I want out of the recession! Give us our money back.

Do you acknowledge the Bush tax cut failed to grow the economy or produce jobs as predicted?

Should Bush be held accountable for being wrong on the tax cute?The Iraq War? How bad does he have to screw-up before conservatives acknowledge Bush policies have been a failure?

More later, but...

I don't think Bush was wrong on any of that stuff. The tax cuts helped turn around a recession in record or near record time. Unemployment is at 5.4%. I think in four years, things have come back just fine. tax cuts are almost always recommended by economists to get an economy going. RAISING taxes sure isn't the answer.

I don't see any real constructive use in questioning everything about the Iraq war. I'd do it this way, I'd do it that way, I wouldn't have, etc. Well, I'm not briefed by the CIA every morning. Clearly, we have to so something. Clinton's policy, as the 9/11 Report talks about, let far too many chances slip by to avert something like 9/11. In fact, we have even more of a reason to be in Iraq now, as more terrorists are coming in. We need to stamp them out, that's how we deal with terrorists. Besides, one philosophy is that if US presence in Iraq brings terrorists in, those are fewer terrorists that we have to hunt for.

Okay, I'm out. Good discussion!

[stry_cat]

That two "admitted Bush wasn't perfect" is your interpretation.

You also went into the "encounter" with the belief that you were right and they were wrong prematurely - nothing they could have said short of denouncing Bush would have been right. There was a failure in communication - I would conclude that you did not listen to them, as you were too preoccupied with proving them wrong and proving their support misplaced and when you could not, you became frustrated.

No I just wanted them to stop denying that Bush supports the Clinton gun ban.  He said that he would sign it if it passed Congress.  They also need to acknoledge that government non-defense spending under Bush has increased more than under Clinton.

Both of these are facts that are ignored by Bush supporters. I can deal with people saying Bush is the lesser of two evils.  I just don't understand these people who think Bush opposes the Clinton gun ban or that Bush spends less than Clinton.

[Giant Saguaro]

That two "admitted Bush wasn't perfect" is your interpretation.

You also went into the "encounter" with the belief that you were right and they were wrong prematurely - nothing they could have said short of denouncing Bush would have been right. There was a failure in communication - I would conclude that you did not listen to them, as you were too preoccupied with proving them wrong and proving their support misplaced and when you could not, you became frustrated.

No I just wanted them to stop denying that Bush supports the Clinton gun ban.  He said that he would sign it if it passed Congress.  They also need to acknoledge that government non-defense spending under Bush has increased more than under Clinton.

Both of these are facts that are ignored by Bush supporters. I can deal with people saying Bush is the lesser of two evils.  I just don't understand these people who think Bush opposes the Clinton gun ban or that Bush spends less than Clinton.

Alright, fair enough.

Now I'll tell you what I think about the gun ban. What I think is that Bush is making an attempt to be a politician. I honestly don't know for 100% certainty if he supports it or not. But it's touchy - and the way the Dems frame it is that there will be fully automatic weapons legalized and kids will have access to US Army style weapons and M-16s and stuff, so I think there's a thin line.

The fact is that Bush KNEW, really now, he knew it wasn't going to get to his desk. Democrats were against it, for goodness sakes. I read about a month ago about a similar kind of gun ban that didn't get through in some state like Maryland or some place where it's Democrat pretty much all over the place. So it's touchy - Bush doesn't want to be seen as handing out machine guns to kids and Dems don't want to be seen as second-amendment hating gun banners, etc.

Now I'm assuming it did not get to his desk, of course, or that it failed in congress.

If I were pushed, I'd say he does not support it, really, but I don't know for sure. You can disagree, that's fine, but this is how I see it and probably how they see it.