USSR swallows up Eastern Europe after WW2 (user search)
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  USSR swallows up Eastern Europe after WW2 (search mode)
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Author Topic: USSR swallows up Eastern Europe after WW2  (Read 9210 times)
ag
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« on: November 08, 2009, 08:54:55 PM »

What made them "swallow" the ones they did swallow though?  Were the swallowed ones already more "Russian" at the time?  What is the big difference between say, the Ukraine and Poland?  Latvia and Romania?  Georgia and Hungary?

The answer is: Russian Empire.

Apart from Poland, all the other territories were Russian not long before !

Which territories? You must mean the opposite: apart from Poland none had been Russian.

But then, for that matter, the same was true of Western Ukraine and Eastern Prussia: neither Lviv nor Koenigsburg had ever been part of the Russian Empire.
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ag
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 08:57:25 PM »

The Eastern Bloc countries had no real autonomy. 

They did a lot more autonomy than any part of the USSR. Some of them where tightly controlled (though not, say, Romania), but they did have some autonomy.
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ag
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2009, 09:14:40 PM »

It was done, in part, for security purposes. And in practice, how much of a difference was there, hmm...

A lot. In practical terms, there was a lot of difference.

Start from the fact that there were, actually, two iron curtains.

An Eastern German could, possibly with some paperwork, travel to Poland or to Hungary or whatever. His trip to USSR was a bit harder to do, though not impossible (still, once in the USSR he'd be subject to a lot of restrictions: a Bulgarian foreign student in Moscow would need a permit to travel out of town, for instance, nor would he be able to go to areas "closed" to foreigners, etc.). In more liberal countries, such as, say Hungary, a native could even travel occasionally to the West, sort of, as a matter of course, at least by the early 80s (say, every few years and if there were no bad problems on file, etc. etc.). Even in Eastern Germany the level of contacts w/ the West was infinitely higher than that normal inside the USSR proper.

A Russian could buy a train ticket and go to Estonia, no questions asked. But travelling further west was very, very difficult. Normally, the first foreign trip would have to be to a super-safe place, such as Bulgaria. Before the trip (which would almost inevitably have to be sponsored by, say, his union organization), such Russian tourist/visitor would have to go to the district Party Committee, where he'd be examined on all sorts of matters, with probing questions asked about how he'd respond to "provocations" while abroad (yes, "provocations" in Bulgaria).  If the first trip were a success (i.e., nobody reported anything bad, etc., etc.) one could hope to be allowed to go to, say, Czechoslovakia. Only after some trips to sociallist countries could a trip to a capitalist country or Yugoslavia be authorized (Yugoslavs were treated as capitalists for these purposes). Any minor hiccup on file and all foreign trips would be cut for the individual in question. Being "vyezdnoj" (literally, "exitable") even to sociallist countries was a big privillege, that would be the first one to be withdrawn if there were any doubts.

Politically, there were big issues as well. Zhivkov in Bulgaria or Hoenecker in GDR were actual local "number ones". Within the Soviet Union the nominal leaders ("First Party Secretaries") would also be local ethnics. However, more often than not, the true power belonged to the "Second Secretary", who'd almost always be an ethnic Russian sent from Moscow. Even if the strong First Secretary actually had the real authority (some of them would be on the Politburo, etc., far outranking the "seconds" in the hierarchy), he had to tolerate a Moscow emissary as his second in command. 

There were many ways in which the satelites were "tansitional" in terms of the degree of control between the USSR and the rest of the world. It did make a lot of difference for them.
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ag
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2009, 09:22:41 PM »

Annexing Eastern Europe would have mean abolishing the Soviet frontier. Even the Baltics and Western Ukraine were not always fully safe acquisitions. Not only they continued active armed struggle till about 1953 (Lithuanian war was quite bloody, as was its Ukrainian counterpart), but even once absorbed they were viewed as a bit of "domestic West", "domestic abroad". Many people always liked to go to, say Estonia, for a bit of "freedom": Estonians were always a tiny bit apart, not like the others (hey, they continued to produce chewing gum for decades until the Soviet food industry decided to do it - and they had their own kinds of chewing gum always! I tell you: for a little Soviet chap Estonian chewing gum was always akin to an illicit look abroad).

Now, the Balts are few in number, but Eastern Europeans are numerous. Even if they didn't revolt at annexation (Poles would for sure; some others might as well), they'd be very hard to integrate. The'd look different, talk different, think different, they'd be subversive - and they'd be in full contact w/ the Russians.  It might not matter as much as long as Stalin was alive, but in the relatively vegetarian years after his death this arrangement would become very unstable.  Had such annexation been attempted, the USSR would have broken up by 1970, in my opinion.
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ag
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2009, 12:47:57 PM »

It would have been interesting if Karelia would have been still Soviet Republic in 1991 and become a independent state. The annected parts of Finland were only partly combined with Karelian SSR. Part of them became part of Leningrad oblast and Murmansk oblast.

Well, the bulk of lands taken from Finland weren't part of Karelia, and the bulk of Karelia had never been Finland. Still, it would have been quite interesting Smiley
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