What the hell is "economic freedom"?
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  What the hell is "economic freedom"?
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Author Topic: What the hell is "economic freedom"?  (Read 4154 times)
Mint
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2009, 10:10:33 PM »

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Misleading them how? Everything was in the contracts they signed, unless we're talking about actual fraud. If people were too lazy or stupid to read the fine print on arguably the most important financial decision of their lives, that's not my problem. I shouldn't have to pay for their stupidity.
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2009, 10:11:16 PM »

empathy is for sotomayor fans
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Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
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« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2009, 10:13:08 PM »

The freedom to whatever you want with your money so long as it doesn't damage the competitiveness of the market nor is very unethical. For example, regulating banks would add economic freedom because the bank's best interests conflicted with the interests of the market's competitiveness.
No, it wouldn't. Government regulation always decreases freedom, never increases.

Really? So a bank CEO having the "freedom" to allow his company to give sub-prime loans to people who normally wouldn't qualify thereby causing all the people to lose freedom when they dive into bankruptcy gives the country more freedom. Hardly.
Uh, yeah, he has the freedom to take risks, and to accept responsibility when those risks turn sour. It would not be in any bank's best interest to make such loans.

Stop trying to re-define freedom into "non-freedom".

Banks misleading people which causes them to lose capital, without which your freedom goes down significantly, is inherently anti-market and hurts the country.
Banks misleading people? Nobody forced anyone to take out loans. What was "misleading"?
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2009, 10:14:03 PM »

The freedom to whatever you want with your money so long as it doesn't damage the competitiveness of the market nor is very unethical. For example, regulating banks would add economic freedom because the bank's best interests conflicted with the interests of the market's competitiveness.
No, it wouldn't. Government regulation always decreases freedom, never increases.

Really? So a bank CEO having the "freedom" to allow his company to give sub-prime loans to people who normally wouldn't qualify thereby causing all the people to lose freedom when they dive into bankruptcy gives the country more freedom. Hardly.
Uh, yeah, he has the freedom to take risks, and to accept responsibility when those risks turn sour. It would not be in any bank's best interest to make such loans.

Stop trying to re-define freedom into "non-freedom".

Banks misleading people which causes them to lose capital, without which your freedom goes down significantly, is inherently anti-market and hurts the country.
Banks misleading people? Nobody forced anyone to take out loans. What was "misleading"?

Banks, like the government, are supposed to take care us, Libertas. We can't do it ourselves. We need them.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2009, 03:57:56 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
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Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
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« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2009, 03:59:00 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2009, 04:24:47 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest. Liberty isn't guaranteed, and strongest people oppress weakest people.
It's mostly the animals' social organizations.
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2009, 04:27:20 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest. Liberty isn't guaranteed, and strongest people oppress weakest people.
It's mostly the animals' social organizations.

Animals use collective organization, you ignorant hack. Ever heard of a pack of wolves? Any other animal? They all group together to protect themselves from outside threats.

Humans do not have this. We have families. Each family must group together to compete against other families to protect themselves. This means that I am required to take care of my family even if at the expense of another's. And guess what? The thought of it does not bother me one bit. We were all given the tools required to fight for our own survival, it's time people begin putting them to use.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2009, 04:39:40 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest. Liberty isn't guaranteed, and strongest people oppress weakest people.
It's mostly the animals' social organizations.

Animals use collective organization, you ignorant hack. Ever heard of a pack of wolves? Any other animal? They all group together to protect themselves from outside threats.

Humans do not have this. We have families. Each family must group together to compete against other families to protect themselves. This means that I am required to take care of my family even if at the expense of another's. And guess what? The thought of it does not bother me one bit. We were all given the tools required to fight for our own survival, it's time people begin putting them to use.

Evolution also gave us a brain to realize how self-destructive "fight for survival" is for everyone.
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2009, 04:41:34 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest. Liberty isn't guaranteed, and strongest people oppress weakest people.
It's mostly the animals' social organizations.

Animals use collective organization, you ignorant hack. Ever heard of a pack of wolves? Any other animal? They all group together to protect themselves from outside threats.

Humans do not have this. We have families. Each family must group together to compete against other families to protect themselves. This means that I am required to take care of my family even if at the expense of another's. And guess what? The thought of it does not bother me one bit. We were all given the tools required to fight for our own survival, it's time people begin putting them to use.

Evolution also gave us a brain to realize how self-destructive "fight for survival" is for everyone.

No. Just no.
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cannonia
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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2009, 05:07:32 AM »

The freedom to whatever you want with your money so long as it doesn't damage the competitiveness of the market nor is very unethical. For example, regulating banks would add economic freedom because the bank's best interests conflicted with the interests of the market's competitiveness.
No, it wouldn't. Government regulation always decreases freedom, never increases.

Really? So a bank CEO having the "freedom" to allow his company to give sub-prime loans to people who normally wouldn't qualify thereby causing all the people to lose freedom when they dive into bankruptcy gives the country more freedom. Hardly.

That's a pretty contorted argument.

What's the loss of freedom?  Eviction from a house that was never paid for?
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Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
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« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2009, 05:13:24 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest. Liberty isn't guaranteed, and strongest people oppress weakest people.
It's mostly the animals' social organizations.
Individuals each acting for his or her own best interests together create the order necessary for the 'common good'.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2009, 06:14:56 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest. Liberty isn't guaranteed, and strongest people oppress weakest people.
It's mostly the animals' social organizations.
Individuals each acting for his or her own best interests together create the order necessary for the 'common good'.

This is an irrational thought supported by no fact. You're just a bigot, the Market is your God and Hayek your prophet.
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2009, 06:15:58 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest. Liberty isn't guaranteed, and strongest people oppress weakest people.
It's mostly the animals' social organizations.
Individuals each acting for his or her own best interests together create the order necessary for the 'common good'.

This is an irrational thought supported by no fact. You're just a bigot.

LOL
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2009, 06:18:24 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest. Liberty isn't guaranteed, and strongest people oppress weakest people.
It's mostly the animals' social organizations.
Individuals each acting for his or her own best interests together create the order necessary for the 'common good'.

This is an irrational thought supported by no fact. You're just a bigot, the Market is your God and Hayek your prophet.

It's important to remember, and this is something I've only recently realized, that people like Libertas are not interested in having a legitimate debate over policy matters or trading evidence for the same reason an evangelist will not spend his time having scientific discussions.

Libertas, and people like him, support their free market and anarchist policies not out of fact or figures, but out of a religious devotion to their cause. They cannot, and will not, be swayed.
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dead0man
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« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2009, 07:09:58 AM »

The libertarian version?

The freedom to overwork employees, the freedom use children as part of your workforce, the freedom cut corners on production, the freedom to overlook health code violations, the freedom to engage in predatory pricing, the freedom to discriminate in hiring practices, the freedom to not pay your employees any additional benefits, and the freedom to bust and intimidate workers from organizing.
Again, we know you don't know anything (at all) about libetarians, you don't have to keep telling us.  Sheesh, it's like you're proud to be stupid.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2009, 07:33:16 AM »

Absence of property.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2009, 09:19:24 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest.

Good. I hate collectivism, I hate community and I hate the tyranny that stems from both.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2009, 09:24:26 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest.

Good. I hate collectivism, I hate community and I hate the tyranny that stems from both.

The collective good serves the individual good of everybody, when it's not highjacked by ideologues/theocrats.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2009, 09:32:51 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest.

Good. I hate collectivism, I hate community and I hate the tyranny that stems from both.

The collective good serves the individual good of everybody, when it's not highjacked by ideologues/theocrats.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Authoritarianism and totalitarianism have stemmed from collectivism, whether it be religion, nationalism, conservatism or big government. The way to stop any further dictatorship is to dismantle the state and live as an individual.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2009, 09:47:17 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest.

Good. I hate collectivism, I hate community and I hate the tyranny that stems from both.

The collective good serves the individual good of everybody, when it's not highjacked by ideologues/theocrats.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Authoritarianism and totalitarianism have stemmed from collectivism, whether it be religion, nationalism, conservatism or big government. The way to stop any further dictatorship is to dismantle the state and live as an individual.

Extreme authoritarism and extreme anarchy are both excessively dangerous. Your problem is that you see things on only one side. The extreme opposite of the Evil isn't necessary the Good.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2009, 10:00:50 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest.

Good. I hate collectivism, I hate community and I hate the tyranny that stems from both.

The collective good serves the individual good of everybody, when it's not highjacked by ideologues/theocrats.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Authoritarianism and totalitarianism have stemmed from collectivism, whether it be religion, nationalism, conservatism or big government. The way to stop any further dictatorship is to dismantle the state and live as an individual.

Extreme authoritarism and extreme anarchy are both excessively dangerous. Your problem is that you see things on only one side. The extreme opposite of the Evil isn't necessary the Good.

The former is yes. The latter is the natural state of mankind, for chaos is normal. It is 'order' that is the bizarre oddity that we have injected into our society. The fact is, the state is a major threat to individual sovereignty, which must ALWAYS come above anything else. 600 people sitting in a hall in London should not be able to make decisions that affect EVERYONE.
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Vepres
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« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2009, 10:39:04 AM »
« Edited: December 05, 2009, 10:41:03 AM by Governor Vepres »

The freedom to whatever you want with your money so long as it doesn't damage the competitiveness of the market nor is very unethical. For example, regulating banks would add economic freedom because the bank's best interests conflicted with the interests of the market's competitiveness.
No, it wouldn't. Government regulation always decreases freedom, never increases.

Really? So a bank CEO having the "freedom" to allow his company to give sub-prime loans to people who normally wouldn't qualify thereby causing all the people to lose freedom when they dive into bankruptcy gives the country more freedom. Hardly.
Uh, yeah, he has the freedom to take risks, and to accept responsibility when those risks turn sour. It would not be in any bank's best interest to make such loans.

Stop trying to re-define freedom into "non-freedom".

Banks misleading people which causes them to lose capital, without which your freedom goes down significantly, is inherently anti-market and hurts the country.
Banks misleading people? Nobody forced anyone to take out loans. What was "misleading"?

The banks basically lead them to believe they had the financial ability pay off these sub-prime loans. That's sleazy and  anti-market as I call it. Now, I don't think the people who were mislead deserve much help beyond what others get because yes, they did choose to take out those loans. Basically, I want to make sure that the banks don't do this again because it hurt our financial system which hurt many people who didn't take irresponsible loans.
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opebo
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« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2009, 10:41:27 AM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Well it isn't anarchy at all, but a carefully and brutally implemented hierarchy of power with the owners in control and the rest kept in place by violence, terror, imprisonments, and executions.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2009, 12:38:14 PM »

An intellectual fallacy used to justify economic anarchy.
And what's wrong with economic anarchy?

Anarchy is the right for anyone to do whatever he wants. People pursue nothing but their self-interest, thus ruining the collective interest.

Good. I hate collectivism, I hate community and I hate the tyranny that stems from both.

Then leave. As soon as you're old enough, get out. Go somewhere where there is no community. You can be by yourself, your own monad.
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