young male Bush supporters

[CollectiveInterest]

I've noticed there's a large number of young male Bush supporters participating in these discussions.

Have any served in the military? Are any applying to serve?

Or is the Iraq War just an abstraction? They support the Iraq War, but leave the service--and all the bad things that go with it--to somebody else.

[angus]

I've noticed there's a large number of young male Bush supporters participating in these discussions.

Have any served in the military? Are any applying to serve?

Or is the Iraq War just an abstraction? They support the Iraq War, but leave the service--and all the bad things that go with it--to somebody else.

No.  and no.  and hell no.  and no.  and hell no.  (but I'm not very "young" anyway.)  For the record.  I support Bush, not the Iraq war.  Never have.  Don't pretend to speak for the GOP punk.

[CollectiveInterest]

No.  and no.  and hell no.  and no.  and hell no.  (but I'm not very "young" anyway.)  For the record.  I support Bush, not the Iraq war.  Never have.  Don't pretend to speak for the GOP punk.

You are over 35 and therefore too old.

I want to hear from the loud-mouthed, self-righteous, know-it-all 16-27 crowd.

[angus]

No.  and no.  and hell no.  and no.  and hell no.  (but I'm not very "young" anyway.)  For the record.  I support Bush, not the Iraq war.  Never have.  Don't pretend to speak for the GOP punk.

You are over 35 and therefore too old.

I want to hear from the loud-mouthed, self-righteous, know-it-all 16-27 crowd.

Fair enough.  Hey, weren't you blue before??

[CollectiveInterest]

No.  and no.  and hell no.  and no.  and hell no.  (but I'm not very "young" anyway.)  For the record.  I support Bush, not the Iraq war.  Never have.  Don't pretend to speak for the GOP punk.

You are over 35 and therefore too old.

I want to hear from the loud-mouthed, self-righteous, know-it-all 16-27 crowd.

Fair enough.  Hey, weren't you blue before??

Yeah, if you mean "blue" as slang for Navy.

Cheney didn't wear green
He didn't wear Navy blue
Asked about Vietnam
He had better things to do

[angus]

yeah, okay.  I did check your sig.  "In the Navy, you can sail the seven seas,  In the Navy, you can set your mind at ease.  In the Navy, you can help your fellow man.  In the Navy, can't you see we need a hand?"  Remember that?  catchy tune.

Yeah, the underlying assumption of the GOP is that we do have greater respect for the armed forces than the dems.  You find that offensive and untrue?  I could see why.  Particularly since this commander-in-chief has left some holes in the supply chain.  But there's more to it than all that.  The dems are keen on cutting defense budget more so than the republicans.   And General Shelton testified that after the end of the cold war, the 12 or so years of BushI/Clinton left us in rags.  You can hardly blame that on Bush II.

AS for vietnam, I for one never held that against Kerry.  You can check my previous posts.  In fact, in that regard I hold him in high esteem.  Kerry is a great legislator, and, like Bush, a superb politician (not necessarily a compliment).  And I don't consider Kerry an antipatriot.  Nevertheless, at the present time, whether we like it or not, we're up to our armpits in enemies, and it's just doesn't seem like a prudent choice to elect Kerry just now.  Maybe during other times, but not now.  Bush is a up.  I have never claimed otherwise.  But the choice between him and Kerry needn't play into that.  It's simple:  the guys who made this mess are the best positioned to clean it up.  Simple-minded?  maybe.  But, as a long-time devotee of occam's razor and rubik's cube and ideal gases, I'm subject to buy into simple explanations.  Why complicate matters by applying the Peter Principle to Kerry, and the boot to Bush?

[J. J.]

No.  and no.  and hell no.  and no.  and hell no.  (but I'm not very "young" anyway.)  For the record.  I support Bush, not the Iraq war.  Never have.  Don't pretend to speak for the GOP punk.

I want to hear from the loud-mouthed, self-righteous, know-it-all 16-27 crowd.

I will point out that the 16 year olds can't enlist, the 16-17 range can't vote, and the US military requires a high school diploma, so that will eliminate some of those "loudmouths."

[angus]

No.  and no.  and hell no.  and no.  and hell no.  (but I'm not very "young" anyway.)  For the record.  I support Bush, not the Iraq war.  Never have.  Don't pretend to speak for the GOP punk.

I want to hear from the loud-mouthed, self-righteous, know-it-all 16-27 crowd.

I will point out that the 16 year olds can't enlist, the 16-17 range can't vote, and the US military requires a high school diploma, so that will eliminate some of those "loudmouths."

If I'm not mistaken the "loud-mouthed, self-righteous, know-it-all" phraseology was an acute, and clever, shot at me.  A well-deserved one, I might add.  Just to clarify. 

None taken. 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled buffoonery.

[CollectiveInterest]

angus,

the short answer to your post is that I'm fine with you not voting Kerry. If I were to vote today, I'm leaning Libertarian.

I would encourage everyone to register their objections to the Bush administration and its policies to vote for some ticket other than Bush/Cheney.

But I want to hear what the young privileged Bush supporters say about military service. If every able-bodied Bush voter from 18-25 years old joined the military we wouldn't need to consider a draft, but they aren't all joining.

[CollectiveInterest]

If I'm not mistaken the "loud-mouthed, self-righteous, know-it-all" phraseology was an acute, and clever, shot at me.  A well-deserved one, I might add.  Just to clarify. 

None taken. 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled buffoonery.

angus, no, it was not directed at you.

I am happy to engage in discussions of substance with reasonable people with whom I disagree before we discuss stuff. But the majority of Bush supporters seem unwilling to engage in meaningful dialogue.

[khirkhib]

I think that we will most likely still be at war in two years (or four).  So those sub-18 year olds will still have their chance to fight in the [strike] crusade [/strike] war against [strike] muslims [/strike] [strike] insurgents [/strike] terrorists in Afghanistan, Iraq (or possibly Syria, Iran, other).

[J-Mann]

Let's just say that if I were president during 2002-2003, I would have done things differently.  That's not hindsight talking either; I didn't feel good about this war in February of 2003 or September 2002.  

The truth is, we could intellectually masturbate all day about whether or not we should have gone to war; whether or not it's right.  Guess what?  All of our discussions aren't going to change what has already been done.  If Kerry wins, he's not going to be able to get in a time machine and stop the Iraq War from happening.  Now we have to finish what was started, and we've got to do it right.

I support following through with the reconstruction of Iraq because I know Iraqis who are damn thankful for the US's liberation; we can't let them down.  I of course support continuing support for our troops because I know a lot of them that are over there right now.  We can't let them down either.  Retreat, surrender, giving up; that's not the right way to end this.  

I know some people get the feeling that because I'm Republican and I'm young that I blindly support the war.  Not true.  I don't like it, and there are serious questions about our motivation for this war that need to be asked - eventually.  Now isn't the time for that.  We're in a position now where we've got to finish what we've started.

That said, I object to being called self-righteous, loud-mouthed, and know-it-all.  I think that my posts on this board have shown that I'm a careful, compromising, and concerned 16-27-year old.  We're not all mirror images of the sadist shown in "Fahrenheit 9/11".

[CollectiveInterest]

Let's just say that if I were president during 2002-2003, I would have done things differently.  That's not hindsight talking either; I didn't feel good about this war in February of 2003 or September 2002. 

The truth is, we could intellectually masturbate all day about whether or not we should have gone to war; whether or not it's right.  Guess what?  All of our discussions aren't going to change what has already been done.

Being wrong about taking the country to war is a pretty big mistake?

Why shouldn't Bush be held accountable?

[J-Mann]

Being wrong about taking the country to war is a pretty big mistake?

Why shouldn't Bush be held accountable?

I don't believe that I ever said that he shouldn't be.  My point is that the war can't be taken back.  We can't "abort" this war and make it so it never happened.  That'd be nice...but we can't.  I'd be a happier person if the Bush Administration would admit that it was a mistake to go in for WMDs and say that today, they'd do things differently.  Naturally, politics precludes them from doing that.

That said, please keep in mind that elections and candidates are about more than one issue for me.  There's an assumption that a Bush supporter is pro-war and that a Kerry supporter is anti-Bush.  That might even be true in most circumstances, but I support Bush on a range of other issues separate from the Iraq War.

[CollectiveInterest]

I support Bush on a range of other issues separate from the Iraq War.

Such as...?

[opebo]

I've noticed there's a large number of young male Bush supporters participating in these discussions.

Have any served in the military? Are any applying to serve?

Or is the Iraq War just an abstraction? They support the Iraq War, but leave the service--and all the bad things that go with it--to somebody else.

Just macho braggadocio..  this type hates thinkers, likes jocks, and just wants to 'kick some ass'.  They do make useful cannon fodder, but a good percentage suddenly come to their senses just before putting themselves in any danger.

[A18]

I support law and order. Am I supposed to become a cop?

[J-Mann]

I support Bush on a range of other issues separate from the Iraq War.

Such as...?

Most of his stances on social issues except for the death penalty.  I like the idea of support for faith based charities.  I support the vast majority of the Patriot Act.  I'm anti-abortion (or pro-life, whichever way you prefer), and how a candidate stands on that issue still plays a role in my decision.  I think Bush can do a better job pursuing the war on terror and finishing what has been started in Iraq.  New additions to the Supreme Court are also a concern of mine; I'd rather see Bush appointees than Kerry ones.

Further on the Iraq War, I understand how the mistake could have been made.  I blame our intelligence institutions more than any one person within the Bush Administration.  Definite backstopping of intelligence took place; they told Administration officials what they thought they wanted to hear, instead of providing them with all the contradictory evidence.  Not a great way to do business, but it's reality.  The consequences were enormous, but hardly all of the blame can be pinned on any one individual.

[J-Mann]

Just macho braggadocio..  this type hates thinkers, likes jocks, and just wants to 'kick some ass'.  They do make useful cannon fodder, but a good percentage suddenly come to their senses just before putting themselves in any danger.

I think that maybe that's correct about a lot of the young Bush supporters, but certainly not all of them.  I wouldn't put myself in any of the three categories you listed.

[CollectiveInterest]

I support law and order. Am I supposed to become a cop?

Do you respect military service?

[J-Mann]

In addition to all of this, I do have a problem with the "shoot-em, kill-em" types that have never held a weapon in their lives.  This country has lots of "armchair generals", and while their opinions may be valid, their experience sure isn't.

[CollectiveInterest]

The consequences were enormous, but hardly all of the blame can be pinned on any one individual.

Is President Bush running the executive branch? Who should voters expect to be held accountable?

What's the difference between what you're saying and, "Since I agree with Bush on issues that are important to me (like abortion) I refuse to hold him responsible even for catastrophic screw-ups on military and intelligence issues"?

[J-Mann]

The consequences were enormous, but hardly all of the blame can be pinned on any one individual.

Is President Bush running the executive branch? Who should voters expect to be held accountable?

What's the difference between what you're saying and, "Since I agree with Bush on issues that are important to me (like abortion) I refuse to hold him responsible even for catastrophic screw-ups on military and intelligence issues"?

Because the Congress voted for it, the public approved of it, and many other intelligence organizations from around the world also thought Iraq had WMDs.  That's not strictly a "Bush problem".

[The Duke]

Not interested in joining because the pay is bad,the hours stink, boot camp looks like tons of fun, and my family has money to pay for my education.

Most importantly,soldiers are often told not to do their job as they know best, and usually for stupid reasons.

So I'm going to be a firefighter for a little while after college.  No one ever tells a firefghter not to put out a blaze because of local sensibilities.

[??????????]

I am exempt from the draft.