Argentina's Presidents Survivor - our survivor ALFONSIN prevails over Frondizi !
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  Argentina's Presidents Survivor - our survivor ALFONSIN prevails over Frondizi !
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Author Topic: Argentina's Presidents Survivor - our survivor ALFONSIN prevails over Frondizi !  (Read 34034 times)
Edu
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« Reply #125 on: January 13, 2010, 04:14:58 PM »

Considering my Kirchner vote might have prompted Gully's Menem vote, I'm almost certain not to vote for her again for the next 5 rounds... I don't want to have this big fight before some rounds.
And it was a try...

Oh man, please don't tell me you are going to defend Menem in later stages, it's probably not his time yet, but it's getting dangerously close Tongue


José Figueroa Alcorta
José Evaristo Uriburu
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big bad fab
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« Reply #126 on: January 14, 2010, 03:09:27 AM »

Considering my Kirchner vote might have prompted Gully's Menem vote, I'm almost certain not to vote for her again for the next 5 rounds... I don't want to have this big fight before some rounds.
And it was a try...

Oh man, please don't tell me you are going to defend Menem in later stages, it's probably not his time yet, but it's getting dangerously close Tongue


José Figueroa Alcorta
José Evaristo Uriburu

I don't like Menem at all, don't worry, but I prefer him to the Kirchners, who are destroying, step by step, the recovery Argentina managed to reach.
If Menem is ousted, the Kirchners should go too.

I just don't like the bias in the US and in some of European countries against every South American politician who is or seems to be on the right and in favour of any "progressive" however inefficient, dull, corrupt, stupid, dangerous or anything else (s)he is...
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« Reply #127 on: January 14, 2010, 03:33:28 AM »

     Juan Ramón Balcarce & José Evaristo Uriburu
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big bad fab
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« Reply #128 on: January 14, 2010, 05:22:23 AM »
« Edited: January 14, 2010, 05:08:31 PM by big bad fab »



1. Bernardino Rivadavia (1826-1827)
2. Vicente López y Planes (1827)
3. Manuel Dorrego (1827-1828)
4. Juan Lavalle (1828-1829)
5. Juan José Viamonte (1829, 1833-1834)
6. Juan Manuel de Rosas (1829-1832, 1835-1852)
7. Juan Ramón Balcarce (1832-1833)
8. Manuel Vicente Maza (1834-1835)
9. Justo José de Urquiza (1852-1860)
10. Santiago Derqui (1860-1861)
11. Juan Esteban Pedernera (1861)
12. Bartolomé Mitre (1862-1868)
13. Domingo Faustino Sarmiento (1868-1874)
14. Nicolás Avellaneda (1874-1880)
15. Julio Argentino Roca (1880-1886, 1898-1904)
16. Miguel Juárez Celman (1886-1890)
17. Carlos Pellegrini (1890-1892)
18. Luis Sáenz Peña (1892-1895)
19. José Evaristo Uriburu (1895-1898)
20. Manuel Quintana (1904-1906)
21. José Figueroa Alcorta (1906-1910)
22. Roque Sáenz Peña (1910-1914)
23. Victorino de la Plaza (1914-1916)
24. Hipólito Yrigoyen (1916-1922, 1928-1930)
25. Marcelo Torcuato de Alvear (1922-1928)
26. José Félix Uriburu (1930-1932)
27. Agustín Pedro Justo (1932-1938)
28. Roberto María Ortiz (1938-1942)
29. Ramón Castillo (1942-1943)
30. Arturo Rawson (1943)
31. Pedro Pablo Ramírez (1943-1944)
32. Edelmiro Julián Farrell (1944-1946)
33. Juan Domingo Perón (1946-1955, 1973-1974)
34. José Domingo Molina Gómez (1955)
35. Eduardo Lonardi (1955)
36. Pedro Eugenio Aramburu (1955-1958)
37. Arturo Frondizi (1958-1962)
38. José Maria Guido (1962-1963)
39. Arturo Umberto Illia (1963-1966)
40. Juan Carlos Onganía (1966-1970)
41. Roberto Levingston (1970-1971)
42. Alejandro Lanusse (1971-1973)
43. Héctor José Campora (1973)
44. Raúl Alberto Lastiri (1973)
45. Isabel Perón (1974-1976)
46. Jorge Rafael Videla (1976-1980)
47. Roberto Eduardo Viola (1980-1981)
48. Leopoldo Galtieri (1981-1982)
49. Reynaldo Bignone (1982-1983)
50. Raúl Alfonsín (1983-1989)
51. Carlos Menem (1989-1999)
52. Fernando de la Rúa (1999-2001)
53. Adolfo Rodríguez Saá (2001)
54. Eduardo Duhalde (2002-2003)
55. Néstor Kirchner (2003-2007)
56. Cristina Fernández de Kirchner (2007-…)

ResultsSad
Round one: Videla 7, J.F. Uriburu 4, Viola 2, Aramburu 1, Rosas 1, Menem 1
Round two: Aramburu 4, Rosas 4, Viola 2, Ongania 1, Roca 1
Round three: Roca 3, Viola 3, Ongania 2, Lavalle 2, Sarmiento 1, Mitre 1, Galtieri 1, Bignone 1
Round four: Ongania 5, Lavalle 2 (2 in previous rounds), Isabel Peron 2 (0 in previous rounds), Galtieri 1, Sarmiento 1, Urquiza 1
Round five: Isabel Peron 5, Ramirez 3, Galtieri 1, Sarmiento 1
Round six: Galtieri 4, Farrell 3, Sarmiento 1, Urquiza 1, Guido 1, Lanusse 1, Levingston 1
Round seven: Lanusse 5, Levingston 5, Urquiza 2, Sarmiento 1, Guido 1
Round eight: Molina Gomez 5, Guido 2 (2 in previous rounds), Rawson 2 (0 in previous rounds), Justo 2 (0 in previous rounds), Urquiza 1
Round nine: Rawson 5, Justo 5, Urquiza 1, Pedernera 1
Round ten: Urquiza 5, Lastiri 4, Pedernera 2, Lonardi 1
Round eleven: Bignone 4, Pedernera 3 (3 in previous rounds), Lonardi 3 (1 in previous rounds), Juarez Celman 1, Quintana 1
Round twelve: Juarez Celman 5, Lonardi 4, Quintana 1, Campora 1, Castillo 1
Round thirteen: Campora 4, Quintana 3, Castillo 1, C. Kirchner 1, Menem 1
Round fourteen: J.E. Uriburu 4, Balcarce 2 (0 in previous rounds+Caudillo's decision), Figueroa Alcorta 2 (0 in previous rounds), Castillo 1, Menem 1, Torcuato de Alvear 1, Lopez y Planes 1

In each round, you vote for 2 presidents or heads of state you want to eliminate.
In case of a tie, the president who has received the biggest total of votes in previous rounds is eliminated. In case of a new tie, I, Caudillo of this Survivor, will decide.
Each round is open for 24 hours+

ROUND FIFTEEN IS OPEN !
Vote away !

Remember: 2 votes for 2 different guys.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #129 on: January 14, 2010, 05:27:35 AM »

I don't like it but I've used my dictatorial power to break a tie between Balcarce and Figueroa Alcorta (for both of whom I've myself voted !).

I've eliminated Balcarce to be coherent with the early elimination of Rosas in this survivor. Anyway, Figueroa Alcorta may well fall soon...

For this round, my vote is:

Figueroa Alcorta
Lopez y Planes
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« Reply #130 on: January 14, 2010, 07:54:15 AM »

Ramón Castillo
José Figueroa Alcorta
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Hans-im-Glück
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« Reply #131 on: January 14, 2010, 01:51:25 PM »

José Figueroa Alcorta
Carlos Menem
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #132 on: January 14, 2010, 02:05:17 PM »

Vicente López y Planes
Manuel Vicente Maza
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« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2010, 02:08:25 PM »

     Vicente López y Planes & Ramón Castillo
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Edu
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« Reply #134 on: January 14, 2010, 06:35:32 PM »

I don't like Menem at all, don't worry, but I prefer him to the Kirchners, who are destroying, step by step, the recovery Argentina managed to reach.
If Menem is ousted, the Kirchners should go too.

I just don't like the bias in the US and in some of European countries against every South American politician who is or seems to be on the right and in favour of any "progressive" however inefficient, dull, corrupt, stupid, dangerous or anything else (s)he is...

Well, i strongly disagree, i think Menem should go way before Kirchner goes and it's got nothing to do with being "progressive" or "leftie" or whatever. Since this started i tried to be as objective as i can probably be and from that objectivity i can say that Nestor Kirchner was much better than Menem.

Should i start naming every scandal of corruption that happened under Menem? Most of the scandals in the Kirchner era are pretty tame compared to the hundreds of million corruption deals in the Menem era. the Swiftgate, the Yomagate (drug trafficking scandal), the rotten milk that the government bought from businessmen who backed Menem and then distributed the milk among poor people in some "charity" programs, the IBM-Banco Nacion scandal (one of the biggest bribery scandals in the Menem administration), The multiplication of our external debt, the record breaking levels of tax evasion, his environmental policies which were a piece of crap and his horrible environmental secretary (Maria Julia Alsogaray, famous for her corruption scandals) who did nothing when thousands of acres in the Patagonia burned, Menem's house in Anillaco (his home town) which had even a private airstrip and an artificial lake (the airstrip was as big as the one our second most important national airport has), and those are just some of the ones that come off the top of my head right now. Is the Kirchner administration corrupt? yes, but in a country were EVERY damn administration was corrupt, they are pretty mild in that aspect, Menem had a scandal every 1 or 2 weeks for christ sake.

And it's not just the extreme (even by our standarts) corruption. How about the time were Argentina was acting as a peace mediator between Ecuador and Peru in their 90's war and we illegally sold weapons to Ecuador. Not only that, but we also sold weapons to Croatia which was also illegal. And then to cover up their tracks they decided to blow up a military factory in Rio Tercero killing a few people in the process, i don't remember Kirchner being responsible for murder in these past years.

Also people like to criticize Kirchner for being authoritarian, but then forget that during the menem era TV shows (even in private stations) were cancelled because they revealed some corruption charge against menem. I remember a news show that got cancelled after they took images of the aforementioned Menem mansion in Anillaco. There are also several reports of beatings against journalists and even against some of the top political cartoonists (which were comedians, not even journalists). Does pressure over some of the media happen in the Kirchner administration? yes, but like in the corruption deals, that is pretty normal in our country where the media was always bribed or "threatened" in basically every single administration we ever had. It's when those "threats" actually become physical assaults or actual cancelling of the shows because of a whim of the president (Menem) or when they are killed (like in every military dictatorship we had) that i actually have a real problem with. Again, Kirchner is pretty mild in this aspect.

Of course then i have to talk about the media itself, which is largely a huge piece of sh**t, there are quite a few excellent journalists but those don't get that much attention. It's not easy to govern a country where the media is overwhelmingly against you like in Cristina's case, every move you make (be it a good one or a bad one) is criticized for days and months and the journalistic quality is pretty low. And the government has 1 public channel (compared to every other of the main channels here which are privately owned) and if they dare put a program in the friggin government channel praising the Kirchner administration then everyone is up in arms calling them "biased", so in the end, not even the government channel ends up being favorable to the government, LOL.
Menem's case was quite different, even if a lot of the media was against him (especially in the last years of his presidency) there were a lot of famous journalists and newsmen (most, if not all of them, right wing) who vigorously defended him. Now with Kirchner you are going to have a hard time finding media people defending them, right wing, left wing or whatever. I think i can count 1 newspaper that sometimes praises the government and then that's it. It's pretty strange that someone that has being criticized by basically the whole media for years now is accused of being authoritarian against that same media, I'm more inclined to say that the media overreact like they usually do (i remember during the Swine flu scare how the media was blaming Kirchner for it ROTFL)

Then i find your claim that the Kirchner's are destroying the recovery that Argentina managed to make a bit strange. The better part of the economic recovery happened under Kirchner, i know that you hate them but they helped a lot in that recovery that "Argentina" made. And i also disagree that they are destroying everything. I mean, it's no secret that the world is undergoing a global economic crisis, you can't really expect Argentina to continue to grow or have the same economic prosperity than what we had a few years ago, it was pretty obvious that we were going to suffer a blow, as did almost every other country in the world. If you don't want to credit Kirchner with the recovery, fine, but if you lay the blame entirely to their government because of an economic crisis during a period of worldwide economic instability, then i think you are grasping at straws.

It's no secret that in this country people like to whine about everything, it's a fact that most (if not more than 95% of our governments since Rivadavia) started with high or decent approval ratings and if they stayed long enough their rating would plummet straight to the bottom, it happens every single time (the only exception to this rule is probably Duhalde, who started with extremely low approval rating and ended up with decent ones). And lots of people like to complain about everything and a lot of the times they do it irrationally. Like for instance the Swine flu scare i mentioned earlier. I mean, there were people who were ripping Kirchner apart accusing them of the Swine flu, some even called them murderers and that wasn't a fringe group, lots and lots of people believed that, and it's basically impossible for the government to do ANYTHING without having loads and loads of irrational criticism. Again, it's not entirely easy to govern a country where everything bad that happens is considered your fault and everything good that happens is ignored or even attributed to the opposition. Even in things where government has little to do with it.

So yeah, a lot of people like to complain just because it's cool. They do forget that Pensioners are receiving more money today thanks to the government increases than they did in quite a while, they forget that the poorest elements in our country, while still not out of poverty are better off than years ago thanks to government social programs, that tax evasion is down, that corruption is nothing compared to what was before, etc. I am from the middle class and i see friends and family alike complain about how bad things are, but honestly i don't know how can they say that when their standart of living hasn't changed, people still travel abroad, people still buy expensive imported stuff, and people in general are still living quite well off and not living that much differently than years ago. I came to the conclusion that even when they are still well off, people like to act like everything is going to hell. I also have an uncle who doesn't live in the city of Buenos Aires, but in the province. He is a dentist in a pretty poor neighbourhood and he always told me (in the 90's for instance) that people were living like rats, there were no jobs and people didn't even receive help from the government. Nowadays, not only his dentist practice is doing much better but all of his regular clients are happy and tell him that they were never as well off as they are now and he deals with dozens of people a week. In general and in the opinion of someone that has lived in this country his whole life i can probably say that people (even now) are better off than years before (and by years, i mean decades).

Even some of the right stuff that menem did, wasn't because his great moral sense, it was because of scandals. menem got rid of the disgusting obligatory military service not because he didn't believe in it, but because a young soldier was murdered by his superiors and in the following investigation all kinds of horrible stuff that was done to young recruits regularly came to light and the public pressure was so strong that menem was forced not only to scrap the draft but also dismantle large portions of the army (which is probably the best thing menem ever did, ensuring that the military would never (or at least for some time) be in any position of taking over the country, which is a huge relief.
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Edu
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« Reply #135 on: January 14, 2010, 06:36:17 PM »

Oh wow, this is my first post i actually have to cut in half Grin


On the other hand Menem did one of the most disgusting things in our recent history which is to pardon major criminals from the 70's including military heads of government of the dictatorships, mass murderers and right wing and left wing guerrillas members. That was a supposed move to pacify the country but in reality it was rightfully seen as a slap to everyone that knew someone who had perished thanks to these guys. Nowadays you could argue that the Kirchner's are more biased to left wingers, but even if it's just the right wing military heads that are put on trial again it's a step forward in my opinion because no one can actually deny that these people belong behind bars for the rest of their lives (and not in those private prisons or whatever, but among the gen pop of some scummy prison).

Also, one of the best things that Kirchner ever did was the reorganization of the Argentina supreme court.
Menem virtually controlled justice in this country by making the supreme court a puppet controlled by himself, he expanded the number of judges in the supreme court and filled every new seat with absolutely incompetent judges who only said, yes, Mr president, yes, Mr president, yes, Mr president and not much more. The head of the tribunal during the menem years, Julio Nazareno was even suspected of not even being a friggin lawyer because his knowledge of law was so slim it actually embarrassed even the first year law students. The Supreme court was a circus full of clowns with only 2 or 3 judges who actually knew what they were doing, and probably the best and most impartial judge during that era was fayt (who is still in the court by the way).
Kirchner actually proposed modifications to the court and Congress began impeachment trials against the menem puppets from the court (finally!) and one by one they started to resign or got ousted. many thought that Kirchner was going to do the same as menem, except put puppets of his own. But he actually put on the court capable, well respected and independent judges that are a lot of things, but puppets of Kirchner they are not. Sometimes they rule in favor of the government, sometimes they rule in favor of the opposition, and have proved time and time again that they became an independent body and probably the best Supreme court we had in a long, loooong time. Of course the Kirchner haters still call them puppets if they rule in favor of the government and say nothing when they rule against it, disgusting hypocrites.

Then i also reserve some lines for the opposition. People that vote against Kirchner don't actually realise the the opposition in general is much, much worse. menem? Reutemann? the incompetent ex Formula 1 pilot who was Santa Fe province governor twice and stood idle while the province was flooded by water...twice? Macri? the corrupt businessman, car smuggling, IMF lover, daddy's parasite good for nothing? Solá? the guy who was a Menem supporter, a Ruckauf supporter, a Duhalde supporter, a Kirchner supporter (he was actually a pretty huge Kirchner fan while governor of the Buenos Aires province) and now a Kirchner critic and major opposition leader? Carrio? Who has proven time and time again that she is even more authoritarian with her party than anything Kirchner ever did? Or maybe Cobos? The "honorable" vice president who fully supported Cristina when he was in the ticket that is now a major opposition figure and who votes against the government and actually campaign against it while STILL being in the vice president's office?

Seriously, when was the last time in the world that a vice president of the same party of the president in a democratic country actually campaigns against the government and even votes in the senate against it? If Biden voted against the healthcare plan or the stimulus that Obama proposed and then stayed in office i think that everyone would be up in arms calling him a traitor and he would be hanged by the balls. In this country, that guy could become head of the opposition LOL.
And i hope no one tries to argue that Cobos is from the Radical Civic Union and Kirchner is a peronist, because: 1) Being a member of a party doesn't mean much nowadays, people are judged more by who they support and less by party affiliation 2) Cobos was one of the Radicals that started supporting Kirchner fully while they were governors and Cobos was actually expelled from the party once he pledge vicepresidential support to Cristina. Now of course the radicals want him back and he is happy to oblige.

There is even more i want to write, but I'm pretty tired and i don't even know if anyone will read this huge message i wrote as it is (I'll be lucky if at least fab reads it Tongue), so i better stop, but this are basically some of my arguments about why Menem is worse than Kirchner and why Nestor Kirchner (Cristina can go out earlier if you want) deserves to be among the top 10 without even a remote hint of a doubt.
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Edu
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« Reply #136 on: January 14, 2010, 06:51:32 PM »

Damn, i forgot to vote Grin

Vicente López y Planes
José Figueroa Alcorta


Wow, there are still a lot of irrelevant guys that need to be ousted soon before we start witht he big ones.

Castillo and Luis Saenz Peña are good candidates for the few next rounds.
And WTF is Rodriguez saá still doing here? the guy was president for 1 week and was as irrelevant as they come, plus he is a corrupt bastard who ruled the San Luis province for 18 years like a feudal king (and now the province is ruled by his brother since 2003 Tongue)
Arguments can be made for Pellegrini and de la Rua (who is one fo the most incompetent presidents we ever had and that's saying a lot).

Also, can we start to get rid soon of guys like Viamonte and maza? who were just guys that governed the province of Buenos Aires for a short while and where just minor historical notes compared to Rosas (they might have been more important during the early days of our independence but not anymore when they actually had the power).
Also, maybe Derqui can go his merry way soon.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #137 on: January 15, 2010, 03:20:57 AM »
« Edited: January 15, 2010, 03:23:40 AM by big bad fab »

Well, who says the survivors aren't interesting ? Cheesy

Thanks, Edu, for all those information.
I must say that your "everyday" examples of Argentina's political (and general) life are really interesting and useful.

Let's say that, of course, my knowledge of Argentina's politics reaches very quickly its limits.
Let's says also that Menem has already faded a bit in outside memories and one tends to judge more kindly the past... You remind us of many misdeeds I must acknowledge I haven't in memory any longer... Good point, in general and for this survivor !
Let's say that, as I've said, I prefer Beria than Putin, which says something of what I think about Menem.
Let's say that, of course, Nestor deserves to stay longer than Cristina.
Let's say that, when talking about "progressive" bias, I wasn't referring to you, as I've always noticed your sense of moderateness and fairness. I was mostly referring to French medias (and French vulgate), which are so biased and stupid on many foreign countries, but especially on South American ones.

Let's say that Menem is interesting "historically", as an object of history if you want, as he put (or tried to put) the old Peronism to the dustbin... that's because I'm more interested in him than in the Kirchners.
A bit like Andropov was more interesting than, say, Eltsin (although Eltsin was roughly democratic and Andropov remained an old style apparatchik despite some "reformist" ideas).

Oh, and I've read ALL your post Wink
I urge everybody to read it: it's in better English than my own posts, so very easy to read... Wink

BTW, I'm proud that this survivor is the first opportunity for you to cut a post ! Smiley
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big bad fab
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« Reply #138 on: January 15, 2010, 03:36:59 AM »



1. Bernardino Rivadavia (1826-1827)
2. Vicente López y Planes (1827)
3. Manuel Dorrego (1827-1828)
4. Juan Lavalle (1828-1829)
5. Juan José Viamonte (1829, 1833-1834)
6. Juan Manuel de Rosas (1829-1832, 1835-1852)
7. Juan Ramón Balcarce (1832-1833)
8. Manuel Vicente Maza (1834-1835)
9. Justo José de Urquiza (1852-1860)
10. Santiago Derqui (1860-1861)
11. Juan Esteban Pedernera (1861)
12. Bartolomé Mitre (1862-1868)
13. Domingo Faustino Sarmiento (1868-1874)
14. Nicolás Avellaneda (1874-1880)
15. Julio Argentino Roca (1880-1886, 1898-1904)
16. Miguel Juárez Celman (1886-1890)
17. Carlos Pellegrini (1890-1892)
18. Luis Sáenz Peña (1892-1895)
19. José Evaristo Uriburu (1895-1898)
20. Manuel Quintana (1904-1906)
21. José Figueroa Alcorta (1906-1910)
22. Roque Sáenz Peña (1910-1914)
23. Victorino de la Plaza (1914-1916)
24. Hipólito Yrigoyen (1916-1922, 1928-1930)
25. Marcelo Torcuato de Alvear (1922-1928)
26. José Félix Uriburu (1930-1932)
27. Agustín Pedro Justo (1932-1938)
28. Roberto María Ortiz (1938-1942)
29. Ramón Castillo (1942-1943)
30. Arturo Rawson (1943)
31. Pedro Pablo Ramírez (1943-1944)
32. Edelmiro Julián Farrell (1944-1946)
33. Juan Domingo Perón (1946-1955, 1973-1974)
34. José Domingo Molina Gómez (1955)
35. Eduardo Lonardi (1955)
36. Pedro Eugenio Aramburu (1955-1958)
37. Arturo Frondizi (1958-1962)
38. José Maria Guido (1962-1963)
39. Arturo Umberto Illia (1963-1966)
40. Juan Carlos Onganía (1966-1970)
41. Roberto Levingston (1970-1971)
42. Alejandro Lanusse (1971-1973)
43. Héctor José Campora (1973)
44. Raúl Alberto Lastiri (1973)
45. Isabel Perón (1974-1976)
46. Jorge Rafael Videla (1976-1980)
47. Roberto Eduardo Viola (1980-1981)
48. Leopoldo Galtieri (1981-1982)
49. Reynaldo Bignone (1982-1983)
50. Raúl Alfonsín (1983-1989)
51. Carlos Menem (1989-1999)
52. Fernando de la Rúa (1999-2001)
53. Adolfo Rodríguez Saá (2001)
54. Eduardo Duhalde (2002-2003)
55. Néstor Kirchner (2003-2007)
56. Cristina Fernández de Kirchner (2007-…)

ResultsSad
Round one: Videla 7, J.F. Uriburu 4, Viola 2, Aramburu 1, Rosas 1, Menem 1
Round two: Aramburu 4, Rosas 4, Viola 2, Ongania 1, Roca 1
Round three: Roca 3, Viola 3, Ongania 2, Lavalle 2, Sarmiento 1, Mitre 1, Galtieri 1, Bignone 1
Round four: Ongania 5, Lavalle 2 (2 in previous rounds), Isabel Peron 2 (0 in previous rounds), Galtieri 1, Sarmiento 1, Urquiza 1
Round five: Isabel Peron 5, Ramirez 3, Galtieri 1, Sarmiento 1
Round six: Galtieri 4, Farrell 3, Sarmiento 1, Urquiza 1, Guido 1, Lanusse 1, Levingston 1
Round seven: Lanusse 5, Levingston 5, Urquiza 2, Sarmiento 1, Guido 1
Round eight: Molina Gomez 5, Guido 2 (2 in previous rounds), Rawson 2 (0 in previous rounds), Justo 2 (0 in previous rounds), Urquiza 1
Round nine: Rawson 5, Justo 5, Urquiza 1, Pedernera 1
Round ten: Urquiza 5, Lastiri 4, Pedernera 2, Lonardi 1
Round eleven: Bignone 4, Pedernera 3 (3 in previous rounds), Lonardi 3 (1 in previous rounds), Juarez Celman 1, Quintana 1
Round twelve: Juarez Celman 5, Lonardi 4, Quintana 1, Campora 1, Castillo 1
Round thirteen: Campora 4, Quintana 3, Castillo 1, C. Kirchner 1, Menem 1
Round fourteen: J.E. Uriburu 4, Balcarce 2 (0 in previous rounds+Caudillo's decision), Figueroa Alcorta 2 (0 in previous rounds), Castillo 1, Menem 1, Torcuato de Alvear 1, Lopez y Planes 1
Round fifteen: Figueroa Alcorta 4, Lopez y Planes 4, Castillo 2, Menem 1, Maza 1

In each round, you vote for 2 presidents or heads of state you want to eliminate.
In case of a tie, the president who has received the biggest total of votes in previous rounds is eliminated. In case of a new tie, I, Caudillo of this Survivor, will decide.
Each round is open for 24 hours+

ROUND SIXTEEN IS OPEN !
Vote away !

Remember: 2 votes for 2 different guys.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #139 on: January 15, 2010, 03:41:44 AM »

Manuel Vicente Maza

Adolfo Rodriguez Saa


Why Ramon Castillo should go now? Granted, we're already in round 16, but I'm not sure.

And, guys, don't forget to read Edu's big posts, before the post on results of round 15.
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« Reply #140 on: January 15, 2010, 07:20:41 AM »

Manuel Vicente Maza
Marcelo Torcuato de Alvear

Good post Edu. I read all of it.
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« Reply #141 on: January 15, 2010, 07:42:40 AM »

Ramón Castillo
Manuel Vicente Maza
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« Reply #142 on: January 15, 2010, 01:08:53 PM »

Manuel Vicente Maza
Marcelo Torcuato de Alvear
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Edu
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« Reply #143 on: January 16, 2010, 12:52:40 AM »

Well, who says the survivors aren't interesting ? Cheesy

Thanks, Edu, for all those information.
I must say that your "everyday" examples of Argentina's political (and general) life are really interesting and useful.

Let's say that, of course, my knowledge of Argentina's politics reaches very quickly its limits.
Let's says also that Menem has already faded a bit in outside memories and one tends to judge more kindly the past... You remind us of many misdeeds I must acknowledge I haven't in memory any longer... Good point, in general and for this survivor !
Let's say that, as I've said, I prefer Beria than Putin, which says something of what I think about Menem.
Let's say that, of course, Nestor deserves to stay longer than Cristina.
Let's say that, when talking about "progressive" bias, I wasn't referring to you, as I've always noticed your sense of moderateness and fairness. I was mostly referring to French medias (and French vulgate), which are so biased and stupid on many foreign countries, but especially on South American ones.

Let's say that Menem is interesting "historically", as an object of history if you want, as he put (or tried to put) the old Peronism to the dustbin... that's because I'm more interested in him than in the Kirchners.
A bit like Andropov was more interesting than, say, Eltsin (although Eltsin was roughly democratic and Andropov remained an old style apparatchik despite some "reformist" ideas).

Oh, and I've read ALL your post Wink
I urge everybody to read it: it's in better English than my own posts, so very easy to read... Wink

BTW, I'm proud that this survivor is the first opportunity for you to cut a post ! Smiley

The amount of scandals during the menem era were so many that it's inevitable to still remember some of those, if you look him up you'll find a lot of stuff i didn't mention Grin

I mainly post in the survivor threads and not in other sectors of the forum because I'm not really an expert in US politics (that's why I'm here Tongue), i like to read about it but most of the serious posters around here would probably wipe the floor with me. I don't have a lot of stuff to contribute and that's one of the reasons i like the survivor threads, especially this one where i can at last talk about something in depth instead of just reading other people thoughts on the matter

Thanks for your kind words Wink



Why Ramon Castillo should go now? Granted, we're already in round 16, but I'm not sure.

He wasn't THAT bad, but as you say we are in round 16 and this guy is living on borrowed time.
The guy was one of the "old" conservative politicians, he was elected as Ortiz Vice president (with electoral fraud obviously), but Castillo didn't favor the proposed political reforms of president Ortiz and instead of being a mediator between the government and the "oligarchs" who still wanted to run the show, he was more of an irrelevant figure who did little to support Ortiz. Ortiz was very ill and by 1940 he was basically on medical leave all the time and Castillo became de facto president and slipped Ortiz reforms under the rug. He had to balance during his term the 2 factions of the army (the pro-allies and the pro-axis) so I'm going to cut him some slack since it was a very delicate situation. He made some good decisions, but overall he represented the political dinosaurs of the past 60 years or so who still wanted to cling to power using fraud or whatever was deemed necessary. Plus he is known for his relative inaction in times where a more pro-active president was needed.
And he was also interventor of the Tucuman province under Jose Felix Uriburu, not the nicest of jobs Tongue (for those of you who don't know, the federal interventor of a province was the guy appointed by the president and Congress to rule a province that was deemed unstable or was threatened by an external power. More often than not though, these interventions were just ways for the government to controll the provinces using authoritarian methods that are justified as constitutional)


Thanks, at least now i know 2 guys read them for sure Wink Grin




This round i'll vote for
Manuel Vicente Maza
Ramón Castillo
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Edu
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« Reply #144 on: January 16, 2010, 01:02:41 AM »

By the way fab, i have a request for you.
After this round, could you postpone round 17 till Monday? The thing is that I'll be travelling most of the time of saturday and sunday and I'm afraid i won't be able to come around here to vote till i get settled and i know that on sunday afternoon I'm going to be completely tired and go to bed early.
So if you could skip saturday and sunday that would be greatly appreciated Smiley

Of course, this can happen if every regular voter here accepts and agrees to it Wink

If someone doesn't want to have a voting break then the worst thing that can happen is that i miss a couple of votes, no biggie Wink

If I'm not here by monday then by all means continue with the game.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #145 on: January 17, 2010, 10:55:08 AM »



1. Bernardino Rivadavia (1826-1827)
2. Vicente López y Planes (1827)
3. Manuel Dorrego (1827-1828)
4. Juan Lavalle (1828-1829)
5. Juan José Viamonte (1829, 1833-1834)
6. Juan Manuel de Rosas (1829-1832, 1835-1852)
7. Juan Ramón Balcarce (1832-1833)
8. Manuel Vicente Maza (1834-1835)
9. Justo José de Urquiza (1852-1860)
10. Santiago Derqui (1860-1861)
11. Juan Esteban Pedernera (1861)
12. Bartolomé Mitre (1862-1868)
13. Domingo Faustino Sarmiento (1868-1874)
14. Nicolás Avellaneda (1874-1880)
15. Julio Argentino Roca (1880-1886, 1898-1904)
16. Miguel Juárez Celman (1886-1890)
17. Carlos Pellegrini (1890-1892)
18. Luis Sáenz Peña (1892-1895)
19. José Evaristo Uriburu (1895-1898)
20. Manuel Quintana (1904-1906)
21. José Figueroa Alcorta (1906-1910)
22. Roque Sáenz Peña (1910-1914)
23. Victorino de la Plaza (1914-1916)
24. Hipólito Yrigoyen (1916-1922, 1928-1930)
25. Marcelo Torcuato de Alvear (1922-1928)
26. José Félix Uriburu (1930-1932)
27. Agustín Pedro Justo (1932-1938)
28. Roberto María Ortiz (1938-1942)
29. Ramón Castillo (1942-1943)
30. Arturo Rawson (1943)
31. Pedro Pablo Ramírez (1943-1944)
32. Edelmiro Julián Farrell (1944-1946)
33. Juan Domingo Perón (1946-1955, 1973-1974)
34. José Domingo Molina Gómez (1955)
35. Eduardo Lonardi (1955)
36. Pedro Eugenio Aramburu (1955-1958)
37. Arturo Frondizi (1958-1962)
38. José Maria Guido (1962-1963)
39. Arturo Umberto Illia (1963-1966)
40. Juan Carlos Onganía (1966-1970)
41. Roberto Levingston (1970-1971)
42. Alejandro Lanusse (1971-1973)
43. Héctor José Campora (1973)
44. Raúl Alberto Lastiri (1973)
45. Isabel Perón (1974-1976)
46. Jorge Rafael Videla (1976-1980)
47. Roberto Eduardo Viola (1980-1981)
48. Leopoldo Galtieri (1981-1982)
49. Reynaldo Bignone (1982-1983)
50. Raúl Alfonsín (1983-1989)
51. Carlos Menem (1989-1999)
52. Fernando de la Rúa (1999-2001)
53. Adolfo Rodríguez Saá (2001)
54. Eduardo Duhalde (2002-2003)
55. Néstor Kirchner (2003-2007)
56. Cristina Fernández de Kirchner (2007-…)

ResultsSad
Round one: Videla 7, J.F. Uriburu 4, Viola 2, Aramburu 1, Rosas 1, Menem 1
Round two: Aramburu 4, Rosas 4, Viola 2, Ongania 1, Roca 1
Round three: Roca 3, Viola 3, Ongania 2, Lavalle 2, Sarmiento 1, Mitre 1, Galtieri 1, Bignone 1
Round four: Ongania 5, Lavalle 2 (2 in previous rounds), Isabel Peron 2 (0 in previous rounds), Galtieri 1, Sarmiento 1, Urquiza 1
Round five: Isabel Peron 5, Ramirez 3, Galtieri 1, Sarmiento 1
Round six: Galtieri 4, Farrell 3, Sarmiento 1, Urquiza 1, Guido 1, Lanusse 1, Levingston 1
Round seven: Lanusse 5, Levingston 5, Urquiza 2, Sarmiento 1, Guido 1
Round eight: Molina Gomez 5, Guido 2 (2 in previous rounds), Rawson 2 (0 in previous rounds), Justo 2 (0 in previous rounds), Urquiza 1
Round nine: Rawson 5, Justo 5, Urquiza 1, Pedernera 1
Round ten: Urquiza 5, Lastiri 4, Pedernera 2, Lonardi 1
Round eleven: Bignone 4, Pedernera 3 (3 in previous rounds), Lonardi 3 (1 in previous rounds), Juarez Celman 1, Quintana 1
Round twelve: Juarez Celman 5, Lonardi 4, Quintana 1, Campora 1, Castillo 1
Round thirteen: Campora 4, Quintana 3, Castillo 1, C. Kirchner 1, Menem 1
Round fourteen: J.E. Uriburu 4, Balcarce 2 (0 in previous rounds+Caudillo's decision), Figueroa Alcorta 2 (0 in previous rounds), Castillo 1, Menem 1, Torcuato de Alvear 1, Lopez y Planes 1
Round fifteen: Figueroa Alcorta 4, Lopez y Planes 4, Castillo 2, Menem 1, Maza 1
Round sixteen: Maza 5, Castillo 2 (5 in previous rounds), Torcuato de Alvear 2 (1 in previous rounds)

In each round, you vote for 2 presidents or heads of state you want to eliminate.
In case of a tie, the president who has received the biggest total of votes in previous rounds is eliminated. In case of a new tie, I, Caudillo of this Survivor, will decide.
Each round is open for 24 hours+

ROUND SEVENTEEN IS OPEN !
Vote away !

Remember: 2 votes for 2 different guys.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #146 on: January 17, 2010, 10:58:06 AM »

So long as Edu hasn't voted, this round will remain open, of course.

Adolfo Rodriguez Saa
Fernando de la Rua

(far from sure I'll "win" with these 2, but I also want to target some recent ones...)
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #147 on: January 17, 2010, 11:00:09 AM »

Manuel Dorrego
Adolfo Rodríguez Saá

Just to get rid of irrelevant people.
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Hans-im-Glück
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #148 on: January 17, 2010, 01:20:01 PM »

Marcelo Torcuato de Alvear
Carlos Menem
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« Reply #149 on: January 17, 2010, 05:05:27 PM »

Carlos Pellegrini
Fernando de la Rúa
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