Nelson and Reid Reach a Deal: Game Over

[Sbane]

So the subsidies won't start till 2013 but people would be forced to buy it before then? I don't think congressional dems are that retarded. I think you may be talking about the public option starting in 2013, which doesn't even exist anymore afaik. This bill isn't perfect but I don't see what would be the better way to cover everyone. And if we have to cover everyone we gotta pay for it somehow. Hey at least the democrats are trying to pay for their spending, which is a pleasant divergence from the republican strategy of borrowing from China and screaming "omgz fiscal conservatism" loud enough so that nobody realizes what they are doing.

[Sbane]

     So this bill makes it a crime to not have health insurance? Can't say I like that idea much, though I guess it makes practical sense.

Yeah but I don't think anyone is getting put in jail for this. They will just be taxed more and if they don't pay that they will face the same consequences you face anyways today for not paying taxes. And I must say this is one of the bills I really approve of. I am much more apprehensive about mandates on small businesses.

[Sbane]

     So this bill makes it a crime to not have health insurance? Can't say I like that idea much, though I guess it makes practical sense.

Yeah but I don't think anyone is getting put in jail for this. They will just be taxed more and if they don't pay that they will face the same consequences you face anyways today for not paying taxes. And I must say this is one of the bills I really approve of. I am much more apprehensive about mandates on small businesses.

     Even if they are merely taxed at a higher rate (nevermind the tax load already suffered by the lowest earners) rather than prison time, isn't that still just punishing someone for a victimless crime?

This is not punishment, rather incentives. If we are going to force insurance companies to cover those with pre-existing conditions, we must make sure people can't just not have insurance until they need it. If we did that the sick would have to pay extremely high premiums. Individual mandates are the right and fair thing to do and it exists in most western countries. And means tested subsidies will be available to those who can't afford it so it's not as if people would have to choose between health insurance and other necessities.

[Sbane]

     So this bill makes it a crime to not have health insurance? Can't say I like that idea much, though I guess it makes practical sense.

Yeah but I don't think anyone is getting put in jail for this. They will just be taxed more and if they don't pay that they will face the same consequences you face anyways today for not paying taxes. And I must say this is one of the bills I really approve of. I am much more apprehensive about mandates on small businesses.

     Even if they are merely taxed at a higher rate (nevermind the tax load already suffered by the lowest earners) rather than prison time, isn't that still just punishing someone for a victimless crime?

This is not punishment, rather incentives. If we are going to force insurance companies to cover those with pre-existing conditions, we must make sure people can't just not have insurance until they need it. If we did that the sick would have to pay extremely high premiums. Individual mandates are the right and fair thing to do and it exists in most western countries. And means tested subsidies will be available to those who can't afford it so it's not as if people would have to choose between health insurance and other necessities.

     A negative incentive perhaps, but it's not like rampant tax cuts are acceptable without rampant spending cuts. Tort reform would also be important to help control health care costs, though I don't know if that's being addressed.

I wish they took on tort reform, but the democrats won't since they are beholden to their lawyer donors. But then again they are also beholden to drug companies, insurance companies, doctors, hospitals etc etc. Maybe if Republicans take over congress, Obama and them can get some tort reform done. It's not a very large part of the costs in the system, but it is something that needs to be tackled.

[Sbane]

     So this bill makes it a crime to not have health insurance? Can't say I like that idea much, though I guess it makes practical sense.

Yeah but I don't think anyone is getting put in jail for this. They will just be taxed more and if they don't pay that they will face the same consequences you face anyways today for not paying taxes. And I must say this is one of the bills I really approve of. I am much more apprehensive about mandates on small businesses.

     Even if they are merely taxed at a higher rate (nevermind the tax load already suffered by the lowest earners) rather than prison time, isn't that still just punishing someone for a victimless crime?

This is not punishment, rather incentives. If we are going to force insurance companies to cover those with pre-existing conditions, we must make sure people can't just not have insurance until they need it. If we did that the sick would have to pay extremely high premiums. Individual mandates are the right and fair thing to do and it exists in most western countries. And means tested subsidies will be available to those who can't afford it so it's not as if people would have to choose between health insurance and other necessities.

Call it what it is - a poll tax for something of dubious value (government-mandated insurance that covers unnecessary things like mammograms and pregnancy coverage for men - no sex discrimination in policy pricing, remember - that's good enough for health insurance, where young men would otherwise be better off, but not for car insurance, where young women would be unjustly penalized - natch) that might better be served by saving plus owing a non-government sanctioned catastrophic insurance policy.

I am perfectly fine with women paying the same as men in regards to health insurance, but your point about auto insurance is well taken. I can't disagree with you there. That being said just buying catastrophic insurance isn't always enough. What if you come down with cancer, or your kidney stops functioning. What happens then?

In addition there are checkups like prostate screenings that apply only to men so its not as if women cause much higher costs than men. Pregnancies seems to be one of the main reasons health care costs more for them.

[Sbane]

Question: Now that it seems highly likely that Democrats have all 60 votes, what are the odds Olympia Snowe votes in favor of cloture?

She said multiple times that she won't vote for it.

Well she has always been against the public option. And with the public option jettisoned, who knows what will happen. Remember she voted for it in committee once.

[Sbane]

     So this bill makes it a crime to not have health insurance? Can't say I like that idea much, though I guess it makes practical sense.

Yeah but I don't think anyone is getting put in jail for this. They will just be taxed more and if they don't pay that they will face the same consequences you face anyways today for not paying taxes. And I must say this is one of the bills I really approve of. I am much more apprehensive about mandates on small businesses.

     Even if they are merely taxed at a higher rate (nevermind the tax load already suffered by the lowest earners) rather than prison time, isn't that still just punishing someone for a victimless crime?

This is not punishment, rather incentives. If we are going to force insurance companies to cover those with pre-existing conditions, we must make sure people can't just not have insurance until they need it. If we did that the sick would have to pay extremely high premiums. Individual mandates are the right and fair thing to do and it exists in most western countries. And means tested subsidies will be available to those who can't afford it so it's not as if people would have to choose between health insurance and other necessities.

Call it what it is - a poll tax for something of dubious value (government-mandated insurance that covers unnecessary things like mammograms and pregnancy coverage for men - no sex discrimination in policy pricing, remember - that's good enough for health insurance, where young men would otherwise be better off, but not for car insurance, where young women would be unjustly penalized - natch) that might better be served by saving plus owing a non-government sanctioned catastrophic insurance policy.

I am perfectly fine with women paying the same as men in regards to health insurance, but your point about auto insurance is well taken. I can't disagree with you there. That being said just buying catastrophic insurance isn't always enough. What if you come down with cancer, or your kidney stops functioning. What happens then?

In addition there are checkups like prostate screenings that apply only to men so its not as if women cause much higher costs than men. Pregnancies seems to be one of the main reasons health care costs more for them.

Perhaps I misinterpret the meaning of "catastrophic", but I would consider those to be catastrophic illnesses.

Then what's the difference between that and normal insurance? Doctor visits and blood tests don't really cost that much you know and it seems like that would be the only thing "extra".

[Sbane]

     So this bill makes it a crime to not have health insurance? Can't say I like that idea much, though I guess it makes practical sense.

Yeah but I don't think anyone is getting put in jail for this. They will just be taxed more and if they don't pay that they will face the same consequences you face anyways today for not paying taxes. And I must say this is one of the bills I really approve of. I am much more apprehensive about mandates on small businesses.

     Even if they are merely taxed at a higher rate (nevermind the tax load already suffered by the lowest earners) rather than prison time, isn't that still just punishing someone for a victimless crime?

This is not punishment, rather incentives. If we are going to force insurance companies to cover those with pre-existing conditions, we must make sure people can't just not have insurance until they need it. If we did that the sick would have to pay extremely high premiums. Individual mandates are the right and fair thing to do and it exists in most western countries. And means tested subsidies will be available to those who can't afford it so it's not as if people would have to choose between health insurance and other necessities.

Call it what it is - a poll tax for something of dubious value (government-mandated insurance that covers unnecessary things like mammograms and pregnancy coverage for men - no sex discrimination in policy pricing, remember - that's good enough for health insurance, where young men would otherwise be better off, but not for car insurance, where young women would be unjustly penalized - natch) that might better be served by saving plus owing a non-government sanctioned catastrophic insurance policy.

I am perfectly fine with women paying the same as men in regards to health insurance, but your point about auto insurance is well taken. I can't disagree with you there. That being said just buying catastrophic insurance isn't always enough. What if you come down with cancer, or your kidney stops functioning. What happens then?

In addition there are checkups like prostate screenings that apply only to men so its not as if women cause much higher costs than men. Pregnancies seems to be one of the main reasons health care costs more for them.

Perhaps I misinterpret the meaning of "catastrophic", but I would consider those to be catastrophic illnesses.

Then what's the difference between that and normal insurance? Doctor visits and blood tests don't really cost that much you know and it seems like that would be the only thing "extra".

Eh, you got me

Also, upon some thought, I think you may be right about the individual mandate (though I'd prefer positive incentives), though I hope nobody is sent to jail for it

Well if you don't pay your taxes, you go to jail (although I am sure the government has other ways of getting the money. As you may imagine their real goal is to get your money, not send you to jail). If you don't like that you are more than welcome to go live on the numerous uninhabitated islands of the world and create your own libertarian commune.

[Sbane]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_cooperative

This would be a better alternative.

Oh yeah, forgot about that, far superior to the crap currently in our congress.

Isn't there a co-op in the current senate bill in place of the public option?