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Author Topic: Three non-issues (big ones in our country)  (Read 2309 times)
Shira
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« on: October 22, 2004, 12:37:25 am »
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At least in the last 8 years (probably much longer) I did not see any reference to the issues of “Gun Control”, “Abortion” and “Gays” in any of the European elections. (Someone told me that abortion is an issue in Ireland).
No one care about gays’ lifestyle.
As to abortion, in some countries it is even provided by the national health care system. The usage of “anti-pregnancy” pills sharply reduced the need for abortion. What’s really efficient is the “Morning-After” French pill. At any event abortion has nothing to do with politics and with election.
The guns status is  very simple. Assault weapons are out of question. Guns are licensed in some countries and forbidden in other. As to politics and election: a non-issue.
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J. J.
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2004, 12:54:13 am »
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I believe that abortion is very strictly banned in Ireland; even things here that most anti-abortion supporters would accept are banned there.

Most European contries have national police forces so there is less of a need for a gun for protection (this is true in US rural areas).

As for Gays, There was a struggle in the late 60's early 70's period in England.


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J. J.

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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2004, 12:57:36 am »
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Gay marraige is the ultimate useless issue since it has no effect on anyone else's life whatsoever.
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J. J.
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2004, 01:20:54 am »
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I'm not sure that all Western European coiuntries do permit same sex marriages?
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"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

"Every government are parliaments of whores.
The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2004, 01:22:15 am »
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I don't care if they do or not. I've yet to see how gay marriage affects my life one iota.
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Shira
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2004, 01:27:34 am »
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I'm not sure that all Western European coiuntries do permit same sex marriages?

regardless what the answer is, the gays issue does not show up in election campaigns. (and neither abortion or assult weapons)
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J. J.
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2004, 01:45:33 am »
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I'm not sure that all Western European coiuntries do permit same sex marriages?

regardless what the answer is, the gays issue does not show up in election campaigns. (and neither abortion or assult weapons)

But that begs the question; European countries have gay people.  Why is there a clammer here for same sex marraiges and there isn't in European countries?
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J. J.

"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

"Every government are parliaments of whores.
The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2004, 01:59:00 am »
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I'm not sure that all Western European coiuntries do permit same sex marriages?

regardless what the answer is, the gays issue does not show up in election campaigns. (and neither abortion or assult weapons)

But that begs the question; European countries have gay people.  Why is there a clammer here for same sex marraiges and there isn't in European countries?

Well, is it that there's nobody wanting same-sex marriages in Europe or is it that it just doesn't make American headlines?  It's legal in two European countries and it would seem to me that others would want their respective countries to legalize it.

Honest question; I really have no idea.
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2004, 02:35:57 am »
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I'm not sure that all Western European coiuntries do permit same sex marriages?

regardless what the answer is, the gays issue does not show up in election campaigns. (and neither abortion or assult weapons)

But that begs the question; European countries have gay people.  Why is there a clammer here for same sex marraiges and there isn't in European countries?

Some European countries and Candian provinces have gay marriage.
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J. J.
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2004, 02:46:06 am »
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What I was wondering is, is it some other reason, such as benefits?
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J. J.

"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

"Every government are parliaments of whores.
The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2004, 04:45:30 am »
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Shira, in case you hadn't noticed, America is full of intolerant religious fanatics, and Europe is not  - amazingly enough.  That is the difference.
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2004, 09:49:23 am »
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Opebo, in case you hadn't noticed, you are an intolerant religious fanatic.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2004, 09:58:50 am »
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Clearing some things up...
Abortion - the issue has been big in Europe for decades, but it's apparently settled now, outside Ireland. The difference between Europe and America is that the issue never got quite as polarized. Most US Ultraliberals want rules far more liberal than anything existing in Europe (where abortions are usually totally legal in the first trimester, near-impossible to get afterwards), while radical anti-abortionists are totally a fringe group almost everywhere in Europe.
Guns - yep, Shira's right. Not an issue. There's simply nowhere as many guns and nowhere as many gun murders, so this should be hardly surprising.
Gay Marriage - very much a subject of political, polarized, debate, but not an election winner. Some form of gay marriage or civil union has existed in the Netherlands and Scandinavia since the eighties, and in recent years Germany, France and Belgium have followed suit. Spain is debating the issue right now.
Exact legal frameworks differ from country to country, but the basic pattern is no full equality with breeders, but not far off either. Another emerging pattern is that change comes under Left wing governments, in the teeth of Conservative opposition, but conservative governments, once they come into power, do not attempt to turn back the tide.
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2004, 12:06:11 pm »
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Guns - yep, Shira's right. Not an issue. There's simply nowhere as many guns and nowhere as many gun murders, so this should be hardly surprising.

Generally speaking that's true. But in a couple of rural areas over here they *are* an issue...
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2004, 02:00:52 pm »
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Although in this election I agree that gun control is not a factor, it is an important issue for me in general.  As part of my job I regularly deal with seethy individuals, and they often get angry at me.  Many of these people do have guns or other deadly weapons, and I have been threatened on several occasions.  I think the best solution would be for me to carry a firearm to deter aggression.  Unfortunately, being in the rights denied state of Illinois, I cannot carry a weapon.  This puts me at a major disadvantage when I have to go into a bad area and be the bearer of bad news, as any potential aggressor knows that I could not have a gun since it is illegal.  They, however, do not abide by the rules.  I wish we could have a CCW permit in Illinois like in Indiana, although I do think that the requirements should be very strict. 

I really don't care what they think are important issues in Europe, their society is totally different from ours.  I don't think we need to look to them for validation or direction.
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2004, 02:08:18 pm »
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At least in the last 8 years (probably much longer) I did not see any reference to the issues of “Gun Control”, “Abortion” and “Gays” in any of the European elections. (Someone told me that abortion is an issue in Ireland).
No one care about gays’ lifestyle.
As to abortion, in some countries it is even provided by the national health care system. The usage of “anti-pregnancy” pills sharply reduced the need for abortion. What’s really efficient is the “Morning-After” French pill. At any event abortion has nothing to do with politics and with election.
The guns status is  very simple. Assault weapons are out of question. Guns are licensed in some countries and forbidden in other. As to politics and election: a non-issue.


abortion is a non-issue in ireland, and a non-issue in China.  In one extreme you can't get one, in the other, you're under *great* pressure to get one if you already have a child. 

Would you really want either of those authoritarian extremes?

Reality check.

Guns are an issue because some are very willing to surrendur that freedom.  Do you really want Russia 1918, or Germany 1938?  My two favorite examples of Gun Control.  No?  Didn't think so.

Gays:  a weird one, very unlike the other two.  You can "get an abortion."  That is, if you're one of the 19% of the population capable of even getting pregnant (it's really a small demographic that most of us are crowded out of due to gender, age, infertility, etc.).  And you can "get a gun" if you're one of the 78% of the population who can.  (a much larger crowded, as you need only be over 18 and not a felon).  But you can't "get gay" in the same way you can't "get black" or "get smart" so I can't quite figure out why you'd include that along with the other two.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2004, 10:01:14 am »
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As part of my job I regularly deal with seethy individuals, and they often get angry at me.  Many of these people do have guns or other deadly weapons, and I have been threatened on several occasions. 
What's your job?
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2004, 10:41:34 am »
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Abortion is not actually a non-issue in Ireland. A constitutional amendment in 1983, copper-fastening the 1861 Abortion Act, stated that the state recognised the right to life of the unborn child. This has since been further amended(referenda in 1992) allowing for access to information on abortion clinics in UK. This sought to redress a controversy caused by the infamous 'X' case when a 14 year-old girl who was pregnant through rape was denied the right to travel to Britain for a termination by the then Attorney-General who was alleged later to have been a Knight of Columbanus(Catholic Freemasons).

Until 1992, since Britain's 1967 Abortion Act, it had been estimated that 3,000 Irishwomen a year travelled to Britain for terminations while the state turmed a blind eye. After the 1992 referenda on right of information and travel, the state seems to accept this formally. End result? We don't have abortion in Ireland; we EXPORT it. A truly Irish solution.....and pro-life groups want this overturned. So yes it is still very much an issue.

As regards guns and gay marriage? Well that's a story for another occassion
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