Are you pleased with Hamilton's banning?

[segwaystyle2012]

In my defense, I am against Hamilton's banning on the grounds of freedom of speech. I would've been just as outraged if a Neonazi forumer got banned for expressing his opinion as I am over Hamilton. Personally, as much of a jerk I thought Hamilton turned out to be in the last few weeks, the last thing I would've wished on him or anyone else is a banning. Just because this is an internet forum doesn't change my views of free expression, even if I can't stand whoever is saying it.

Was anyone here not a jerk to him?

[Joe Republic]

In addition to the above, of the 79 posts Hamilton reported (yes, 79) only 32 were considered valid and relevant actions taken (although most of those were minor offenses by comparison).

It'd take a while to go through all the posts of Hamilton's that were reported, but I can assure you all that the overwhelming majority of them were reported for valid reasons.

Before you accuse the moderation team of being biased against Hamilton, Dave reviews many (if not most) of the reports himself.  Hence why he took the unprecedented step of giving him a dressing down in public, evidently due to having lost patience himself.

[Mechaman]

Hey all,

I'm responsible for the majority of the Hamilton interactions from the Mod Team, so I feel responsible for explaining why he was banned.  Hamilton had a lot of offenses, and they tended to be pretty standard stuff.  He did have the most offenses of anyone by far, but that wasn't what got him banned.  Being banned is not just a testament to how many offenses someone racks up and how severe they are.  Basically, Dave's going rule (and I agree with it) is that someone shouldn't be banned if they seem interested in reforming.

For 80% of my interaction with him, Hamilton didn't bother to communicate.  He sent a few sarcastic replies (one of them was in AOL-speak) early on.  Later on, I think he mostly just ignored moderator requests.  This changed when I put him on probation and he got mad that he couldn't post in forums I moderated.  At the time I didn't consider him much worse of an offender, besides in volume, than anyone on the list.  But he became the most obstinate.

When I put him on, he started to report posts en masse, but continued making the same offenses.  He'd report a post for using the term "retarded," and then post something objectively more vulgar minutes later.  I PMed to tell him to stop.  He continued, and kept bypassing the probation.  His reasoning?  Nothing in the ToS obligated him to cooperate with us or heed probation.  This is true.  But if he's not going to cooperate, we have no reason to believe he will spontaneously reform.  He never improved, never indicated interest in improving, and it was getting to the point where I was spending like an hour a day on Hamilton-related moderating.  I could post individual examples of his personal attacks, but none of them present the full picture of his mix of spitefulness and high-volume offending.

His last message to me said verbatim that he "didn't give a sh**t" about cooperativeness unless it was mandated in the ToS.  The thing is, he didn't do most of what was mandated in the ToS either.  His only excuse here was that other people do it more, which by all objective standards was untrue.  It was a horrible argument.  He wasn't improving.  He refused to cooperate with any of us in explaining his behaviors or offering improvement.  He had been on Mod Review from Dave between two and four times before.  There wasn't really much else we could do.  We have to have consequences for rules, and unrepentant, hostile offenders shouldn't get 5,000 chances.  Hamilton got about 4,999.

Happy to field any comments.  Thanks for the feedback (especially useful_idiot -- the more specific the feedback, the more chance I stand of replying to it adequately.)

Ben

(Full disclosure: The only unresolved thing to me is a weird part of his last PM, which I didn't see until he was banned.  When I told him that his claim that other moderates substantiated his posts more was bunk, because I could see their actions thanks to a new moderator future, he called me a "liar" and told me to "talk to Mechaman."  I doubt this would have been significant to our decision, but it was cryptic enough I can't know for certain, and I feel obligated to disclose that.)

I'm confused right now Alcon, I honestly don't remember what he's talking about.
Though a few days ago me and him had a discussion and we tried to work out some differences. I personally have stopped caring about his whole case, I wanted to personally get the hell out of all of this. All I know is that every criticism I made of the ARC at one point or of Hamilton would disappear for a time. And he openly admitted to reporting them because I "attacked" the ARC and his friends. I will admit that when I left the ARC I did say "forget (different f-word though) the ARC!" And he said that he knew alot of people with mental handicaps and thus he was offended by the use of the word retard.
I'm sorry I can't think of anything else.

[Lunar]

Hey all,

I'm responsible for the majority of the Hamilton interactions from the Mod Team, so I feel responsible for explaining why he was banned.  Hamilton had a lot of offenses, and they tended to be pretty standard stuff.  He did have the most offenses of anyone by far, but that wasn't what got him banned.  Being banned is not just a testament to how many offenses someone racks up and how severe they are.  Basically, Dave's going rule (and I agree with it) is that someone shouldn't be banned if they seem interested in reforming.

For 80% of my interaction with him, Hamilton didn't bother to communicate.  He sent a few sarcastic replies (one of them was in AOL-speak) early on.  Later on, I think he mostly just ignored moderator requests.  This changed when I put him on probation and he got mad that he couldn't post in forums I moderated.  At the time I didn't consider him much worse of an offender, besides in volume, than anyone on the list.  But he became the most obstinate.

When I put him on, he started to report posts en masse, but continued making the same offenses.  He'd report a post for using the term "retarded," and then post something objectively more vulgar minutes later.  I PMed to tell him to stop.  He continued, and kept bypassing the probation.  His reasoning?  Nothing in the ToS obligated him to cooperate with us or heed probation.  This is true.  But if he's not going to cooperate, we have no reason to believe he will spontaneously reform.  He never improved, never indicated interest in improving, and it was getting to the point where I was spending like an hour a day on Hamilton-related moderating.  I could post individual examples of his personal attacks, but none of them present the full picture of his mix of spitefulness and high-volume offending.

His last message to me said verbatim that he "didn't give a sh**t" about cooperativeness unless it was mandated in the ToS.  The thing is, he didn't do most of what was mandated in the ToS either.  His only excuse here was that other people do it more, which by all objective standards was untrue.  It was a horrible argument.  He wasn't improving.  He refused to cooperate with any of us in explaining his behaviors or offering improvement.  He had been on Mod Review from Dave between two and four times before.  There wasn't really much else we could do.  We have to have consequences for rules, and unrepentant, hostile offenders shouldn't get 5,000 chances.  Hamilton got about 4,999.

Happy to field any comments.  Thanks for the feedback (especially useful_idiot -- the more specific the feedback, the more chance I stand of replying to it adequately.)

Ben

(Full disclosure: The only unresolved thing to me is a weird part of his last PM, which I didn't see until he was banned.  When I told him that his claim that other moderates substantiated his posts more was bunk, because I could see their actions thanks to a new moderator future, he called me a "liar" and told me to "talk to Mechaman."  I doubt this would have been significant to our decision, but it was cryptic enough I can't know for certain, and I feel obligated to disclose that.)

my one comment is for you to combine threads about him into a single thread so the fool doesn't get the glory of being the center of attention in more than one thread...it's bad enough that he's getting the attention he's spent so much effort accumulating and so desperately needs

[segwaystyle2012]

pizzathehut014 (12:02:30 AM): i did call alcon a liar
pizzathehut014 (12:02:31 AM): he lied
pizzathehut014 (12:02:38 AM): he said mods didnt act on the word retarded
pizzathehut014 (12:03:02 AM): masterjedi often edited posts containing the word retarded, as he did to mechamans post "atlasia retard coalition"
pizzathehut014 (12:03:11 AM): thanks for keeping me up to date on their bs and lies

[Marokai Backbeat]

Trolling is an attempt to piss people off, either by making PERSONAL attacks(I don't think calling someone a moron counts as personal), creating stupid pointless threads and posts that contribute nothing, using the forum to advertise something, or being generally offensive(racist, sexist, etc). I didn't see that from Hamilton, but it could have happened.

Actually out of most of the people here, I trust your judgment so I'll stay out of this from now on.

Well if you didn't see the bolded stuff from him, then yes you weren't paying attention to him. Still at least you've admitted it could've happened and aren't likely to join his little clique who'll be lobbying to free him all of next week (That being Libertas, Mint and this new guy.)

Yeah, I'm sorry, but holy crackbucket useful idiot, how could you not see all his junk? most of the egregious stuff was thankfully deleted, but I can recall several instances of him making posts that respond within mere seconds of mine, just to spam out a thread or derail a conversation (such as my response to someone not even at all related to him), he made ridiculous insults against me on the basis of personal information (like my income, my education, etc), made remarks slighting me because of my sexual orientation, insulted me in a whole host of ways that went beyond simple "moron, idiot, you're a fool" insults I couldn't care less about, and so on.

This was all just his interaction with me.

He made pointless provocations with others for the sole intent of starting fights with nothing else added to them, and for a stint there for awhile, posted hundreds of times in just a few days (once over 200 times in a day) and so on. I recall several instances of him and NCY or Rowan getting into e-fistfights, over stupid reasons like Hamilton trying to attack him over talking about wisdom teeth pain for some stupid reason, and others.

And oh yeah, there was the time he was a major ass by attacking me in a thread for saying "hun" in my condolences to Tmth after he announced his friend and classmate had died.

I don't think any one person on this forum could chronicle all of his crap in one or two posts, even if they hit the text limit.

[segwaystyle2012]

pizzathehut014 (12:03:11 AM): thanks for keeping me up to date on their bs and lies
segwaystyle (12:04:51 AM): theyre acting immature
pizzathehut014 (12:05:00 AM): look, libertas got trolllisted for "abuse of reporting system"
pizzathehut014 (12:05:12 AM): libertas said he only reported a post where mechaman called someone a nf****t
segwaystyle (12:05:26 AM): he also called people nc**nts today
pizzathehut014 (12:05:25 AM): exactly
pizzathehut014 (12:05:33 AM): there is a clear double standard in where the rules do and do not apply
pizzathehut014 (12:05:42 AM): i called someone a troll- personal attack
pizzathehut014 (12:05:48 AM): people call me a troll- nothing
segwaystyle (12:05:56 AM): yeah its so stupid
pizzathehut014 (12:06:06 AM): ha
pizzathehut014 (12:06:07 AM): oh well
pizzathehut014 (12:06:20 AM): they'll sya anything to build their case because they can get away with it
pizzathehut014 (12:06:25 AM): public opinion is on their side
pizzathehut014 (12:06:27 AM): snowball effect
pizzathehut014 (12:06:38 AM): itll just get bigger and bigger until i have no one there left
segwaystyle (12:06:47 AM): i know what you mean
pizzathehut014 (12:06:52 AM): thanks for keeping me up to date

[Mechaman]

I can back up the statements that the word "retarded" was edited out. I did call the ARC the Atlasia Retard Coalition (in jest) in my Anti-Atlasian Square Party thread and somewhere else. So yeah, the mods did act on the "r-word".
I did use the word "nf****t" once, though I didn't know that Libertas reported it (hell I assumed he was a dye in the wool defender of free speech, apparently I'm wrong).
I DID NOT CALL SOMEONE A nc**nt TODAY, I CALLED YOU GUYS "STUPID c**ntFUCKS", GET IT RIGHT.

Just the facts.
If Pizzathehut wants to refresh my memory of what else he said (I seriously can't remember right now) then let him do so.

[segwaystyle2012]

Pizzathehut was banned from using this forum early in the morning and can not even read it.

Now, Mechaman please answer the question I posed at the top of this page. I'd be interested in seeing a hopefully rational response.

[Mechaman]

Pizzathehut was banned from using this forum early in the morning and can not even read it.

Now, Mechaman please answer the question I posed at the top of this page. I'd be interested in seeing a hopefully rational response.

What? Am I pleased with his banning?
No! In spite of his latest mood swings he still brought some good discussion to the General Discussion Board among others. He had very unique views that I will really miss.
That is the truth.

[segwaystyle2012]

In my defense, I am against Hamilton's banning on the grounds of freedom of speech. I would've been just as outraged if a Neonazi forumer got banned for expressing his opinion as I am over Hamilton. Personally, as much of a jerk I thought Hamilton turned out to be in the last few weeks, the last thing I would've wished on him or anyone else is a banning. Just because this is an internet forum doesn't change my views of free expression, even if I can't stand whoever is saying it.

Was anyone here not a jerk to him?

THis is the question I was referring to, Mechadude.

[Alcon]

Mechaman --

Part of our PM exchange was about an incident a few months back when he threatened to leak some information.  I mentioned it as one item in a long list of offenses, and he objected.  Because it was Fantasy Politics and his objections involved game details, I was pretty much clueless.  I don't know how that relates to lying about reported posts.

But I think the other moderators will back me up when I say, if I even rejected Hamilton's reports at greater rates, it was only statistical noise, or because the word "retarded" might come up in my forum more than others .

And even if this were somehow true, or the posts , there's not much we can do about it when he decided he "didn't give a sh**t" about communicating with us about it.  He only ever started interacting with a moderator when he disapproved of his posts being deleted.  And his response was basically "I don't have to cooperate" with you.  No he doesn't.  But that leaves us with horrible behavior, no indication of change, and no interest in cooperation.  Like I said, at minimum, we have to enforce the rules.  Periodically deleting offensive posts with no repercussion, while the poster makes it obvious they're going to keep breaking the rules, obviously doesn't work.

[Mechaman]

In my defense, I am against Hamilton's banning on the grounds of freedom of speech. I would've been just as outraged if a Neonazi forumer got banned for expressing his opinion as I am over Hamilton. Personally, as much of a jerk I thought Hamilton turned out to be in the last few weeks, the last thing I would've wished on him or anyone else is a banning. Just because this is an internet forum doesn't change my views of free expression, even if I can't stand whoever is saying it.

Was anyone here not a jerk to him?

THis is the question I was referring to, Mechadude.

Yes, people were jerks to him. Especially DWTL. In fact I really enjoyed Hamilton just because he pissed DWTL off a lot. When DWTL left, I guess I just realized that maybe some people's attitudes probably rubbed off on him or something. We are all victims of our environment, I will not deny that some of the crap that Hamilton got was unjustified, but that doesn't automatically make all of it unjustified.

[Mechaman]

Hey man I'm just telling you as much factual information as I can remember. I'm not calling Hamilton a worse poster than DWTL, in fact I just said I was on his side against DWTL. I would gladly side with Hamilton if DWTL showed up again acting almighty and powerful. I'm just saying that once DWTL left I started noticing more and more about how anatogonistic Hamilton got with other forumers like Winston. Like Winston left I believe it was the ARC and Hamilton flipped out.

[Alcon]

Sorry, I'm having trouble keeping up with this IM back-and-forth, hopefully this is still relevant

Another moderator might have edited the word "retarded" out once, but I did not every time he reported it, and I'm pretty sure (no record of outgoing PMs) that I PMed Hamilton to tell him to stop reporting this.  He saw the one edit of "retarded" but was unaware of all the times it wasn't edited?  That's ridiculous.  Either way, considering Hamilton was reporting people for saying "retarded" and "bastard" and then posting with much more vulgar language, what is the point?  It's still an abuse of the reporting system.  

He even reported a post with a picture of a bong or something with the reason "drug paraphernalia."  (Seriously.)

The thing is, even if any of his claims were true, it really doesn't matter much.  The issue is A) whether he stopped violating the rules, and B) whether he had any intention or means [via cooperation] to do so.  In either case, he failed to, leaving us with a non-cooperative user who intended to keep breaking the same rules over and over again.  He hasn't bothered to contest either point, but they are why he was banned.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Hey man I'm just telling you as much factual information as I can remember. I'm not calling Hamilton a worse poster than DWTL, in fact I just said I was on his side against DWTL. I would gladly side with Hamilton if DWTL showed up again acting almighty and powerful. I'm just saying that once DWTL left I started noticing more and more about how anatogonistic Hamilton got with other forumers like Winston. Like Winston left I believe it was the ARC and Hamilton flipped out.

Uh, Hamilton and Winston didn't have any such problems. They got along just fine.

[Mechaman]

Hey man I'm just telling you as much factual information as I can remember. I'm not calling Hamilton a worse poster than DWTL, in fact I just said I was on his side against DWTL. I would gladly side with Hamilton if DWTL showed up again acting almighty and powerful. I'm just saying that once DWTL left I started noticing more and more about how anatogonistic Hamilton got with other forumers like Winston. Like Winston left I believe it was the ARC and Hamilton flipped out.

Uh, Hamilton and Winston didn't have any such problems. They got along just fine.

Really now?
I distinctly remember Winston going back to the RPP/PCP or something for like a week and Hamilton was on his ass and I went in to try to settle him down and Hamilton was like "No he's siding with the authoritarians!" or something like that. I would go and search for it, but for all I know it's probably been deleted by now.

[segwaystyle2012]

Alcon, might this be relevant:

Discrimination and Hateful Speech: Posts deemed to be discriminatory or hateful against other posters or groups in general due to race, religion, etc. are deleted when reported.

"retarded" fits under there by any rational definition of the terms outlined.

[Mechaman]

Listen:

I am not the one to talk to segway. I HAVE NO FRIGGIN POWER OR AUTHORITY, alright? Also, I AM NOT AGAINST HAMILTON HERE, OKAY? Also, I doubt anything I may have to say will help or hinder this situation anymore than where it's at already.
Now please, I have a 10:30 class in the morning.

[Alcon]

GaryJohnson,

In about the same sense that "sucks" fits under sexually vulgar language.  I'm reasonably sure, although not completely, that I PMed Hamilton asking him to cease reporting "retarded," at least until I hashed it out with Dave.  Either way, if he paid enough attention to notice that the one post was edited, he surely noticed that the others weren't being.  Even if there was a sincere miscommunication about "retarded" and he didn't notice they weren't being deleted, stuff like the "drug paraphernalia" report was clearly systemic abuse of the reporting function.  And it doesn't serve to dispute the central fact, that Hamilton was reporting posts while breaking rules anyway, which makes no sense even if we assume his reports were benevolent, which is straining credulity.

That's the point:  Hamilton was reporting these posts while breaking rules he knew were worse.  How does that disprove the A) and B) points I just outlined?  He knew he was breaking rules, he didn't care, he didn't talk to a moderator about it until his posts were being deleted for it, and even when he did, he refused to cooperate and kept intentionally offending.  Unless anything disputes that fundamental tenant, or you believe that there should be no punishment

Imagine.  You're a judge.  Some dude comes into court with 500 shoplifting convictions, mentally fit to stand trial, with two previous probations for felony theft, and says:

I don't have to cooperate with you, and besides there are other shoplifters out there, and here are ten people who parallel park (or have photographs of bongs!!!)

You're going to, what, just set him free and have him return the merchandise every time he's caught?  Or actually punish him with jail time?  We're doing jail time.

P.S. I appreciate your commitment to this cause and Internet security in general, since you've only posted from proxies.   I have no idea if this means you're Hamilton.  I doubt it, but if you are, I'm not bothered, because this is exactly the way you should have talked to us to have prevented this mess from happening.  If you aren't, welcome aboard, and I appreciate your temperate civility.

[Lunar]

Alcon, why do we have to spend so much time intelligently discussing a clear sociopath who's only purpose on this forum was to divide, manipulate, and conquer?

[Alcon]

Alcon, why do we have to spend so much time intelligently discussing a clear sociopath who's only purpose on this forum was to divide, manipulate, and conquer?

The answer to this and all of your questions is "internet"

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Alcon, why do we have to spend so much time intelligently discussing a clear sociopath who's only purpose on this forum was to divide, manipulate, and conquer?

Who here is talking about MasterJedi?

[Lunar]

Alcon, why do we have to spend so much time intelligently discussing a clear sociopath who's only purpose on this forum was to divide, manipulate, and conquer?

The answer to this and all of your questions is "internet"

It just displeases me for someone who only cared about attention, to the extent that he was banned, to receive so much attention after he is banned, because he was banned.

Aren't you feeding into this cycle, and encouraging future cycles, by treating his entire existence as anything but a desperate plea for attention?

Y'all could ban me tomorrow, it wouldn't be a big deal in my life. 

[segwaystyle2012]

GaryJohnson,

In about the same sense that "sucks" fits under sexually vulgar language.  I'm reasonably sure, although not completely, that I PMed Hamilton asking him to cease reporting "retarded," at least until I hashed it out with Dave.  Either way, if he paid enough attention to notice that the one post was edited, he surely noticed that the others weren't being.  Even if there was a sincere miscommunication about "retarded" and he didn't notice they weren't being deleted, stuff like the "drug paraphernalia" report was clearly systemic abuse of the reporting function.  And it doesn't serve to dispute the central fact, that Hamilton was reporting posts while breaking rules anyway, which makes no sense even if we assume his reports were benevolent, which is straining credulity.

That's the point:  Hamilton was reporting these posts while breaking rules he knew were worse.  How does that disprove the A) and B) points I just outlined?  He knew he was breaking rules, he didn't care, he didn't talk to a moderator about it until his posts were being deleted for it, and even when he did, he refused to cooperate and kept intentionally offending.  Unless anything disputes that fundamental tenant, or you believe that there should be no punishment

Imagine.  You're a judge.  Some dude comes into court with 500 shoplifting convictions, mentally fit to stand trial, with two previous probations for felony theft, and says:

I don't have to cooperate with you, and besides there are other shoplifters out there, and here are ten people who parallel park (or have photographs of bongs!!!)

You're going to, what, just set him free and have him return the merchandise every time he's caught?  Or actually punish him with jail time?  We're doing jail time.

P.S. I appreciate your commitment to this cause and Internet security in general, since you've only posted from proxies.   I have no idea if this means you're Hamilton.  I doubt it, but if you are, I'm not bothered, because this is exactly the way you should have talked to us to have prevented this mess from happening.  If you aren't, welcome aboard, and I appreciate your temperate civility.

Well, I must say, a permaban isn't jail time, it's the death penalty. Make of that what you will.

Also, you might wonder why I post from proxies? I'm at school so I make all my posts from proxies. not because I'm a weirdo (I might be) but because I frequent drug sites while I surf this forum and another political forum. Why do I frequent drug sites, you might ask? To find more like-minded people to support Gary Johnson. I don't think my school seeing a bunch of drug related websites from my name would be very helpful on my resume.